"What can the PA actually do?" and other imponderables
The New Jersey Devils Will Remain Shorthanded for the Time Being - In Lou We Trust
The NHLPA apparenly isn't happy about the Devils having played with 15 skaters. [Nick Kypreos tweet:]Donald Fehr and #NHLPA to conduct an internal review to see if the CBA was violated when #Devils decided to only dress 15 skaters.
This is ridiculous by [sic] the PA [...] because last night wasn't the first time a team played with less [sic] than 18 skaters in a game [...]
True.
In addition to precedent, what can the PA actually do? Not have the power to force New Jersey to send a player/NHLPA member to the minors just to make space for injury replacements?
You mean, besides launching a formal Article 26 investigation leading to fines, cap penalties, loss of picks and/or suspensions?
Also, the Devils already have "space for injury replacements." The CBA provides for this. The problem is that the Devils are millions of dollars over the cap, so they squandered the LTIR replacement space in advance, in order to avoid being in circumvention (um) again.
I also wanted to weigh in on your reaction to various members of the MSM, who voiced the concern that not dressing a full roster is bad for the fans.
As a season ticket holder and a Devils supporter who was at the game, their "concern" is garbage. Maybe it's just me, but I'm quite offended by others claiming I've been wronged somehow.
Quite. However: fans, plural. Last I checked, Wyshynski is also a fan. Or, as you would say, "fan."
Let me get this straight: Are Wyshynski, Adams, Kypreos, et al actually arguing that I was cheated out of the money because they don't have a complete fourth line? A fourth line that sees limited minutes on most nights, as triumph44 pointed out? A fourth line that is usually subjected to the bench [ed. sounds painful] when coaches shorten it in a game? A fourth line that would feature, who exactly? Pelley and 2 call ups from Albany? The argument is that missing that completed fourth line made the Devils that much inferior to Pittsburgh, a game that ended 3-1 with an empty net goal by the Penguins, and so the fans lost out. They cannot be so serious to say such shortsighted foolishness [...]
Well, to be fair, you're the one who said they said it. They didn't say it. I'm pretty sure Puck Daddy specifically distinguished between a short bench for one game and a short bench over several games.
Also, re "short-sighted foolishness": projection denied.
[...] yet that's apparently what I'm reading, in the typed word.
I understand hyperbole is big in the media. Would it be hyperbole to claim such points as [sic] hysterical?
[...]
A full fourth line would have been nice, but let's not pretend that alone would have led to a Devils victory.
Indeed. (Quite!) Let's not. However: nobody's pretending that.
Lots of things -- alone -- do not lead one to victory. For example, sticks. That doesn't diminish their importance.
If you want to blame Lou Lamoriello for the Devils getting into this mess on the cap and/or not making a permanent move to make space, then you'll get no argument out of me.
[wipes brow] Rationality returns --
But I, for one, refuse to be your rhetorical prop.
-- however briefly.
To suggest that I and the 12,879* at the game were somehow wronged in all of this, that we wasted our money and time to go to the game, because the Devils weren't able to get two more forwards to create a 10-minutes-at-the-very-most line of forwards is simply ludicrous.
The reason that hypothetical Elite Superstar X plays 19 minutes a game and not 20, or plays 22 minutes a game and not 23, is not just because coaches love variety. It's the same reason they count pitches in baseball. Because the coach knows that the player has a limit, beyond which his play will suffer. If a fourth line plays ten minutes, it's because the coach believes that the physical limit of the first three lines is (in total) 50 minutes.* Beyond which, three exhausted superstars are not even as good as a fresh trio of subpar knuckledraggers. If you simply dispense with a fourth line, you carve up those ten (or 5 or 7 or 12) minutes among the other three lines.
A shift is 45 seconds long (and again, it's not arbitrary: 55 seconds and you have exhaustion; exhaustion equals mistakes; mistakes equals...). Last year, every member of the Devils, but one, had an average shift length of between 40-47 seconds (Ilya Kovalchuk averaged 58 seconds). So that's...11-14 exhausted sub-par shifts per game? How many goals against is that worth?
Last year, the difference between the Devils' goals-for and goals-against averages was less than half a goal.
*Yes, I know sometimes you put out your goons on specific goon ops.
Maybe I'm the fool and someone feels otherwise [...]
:)
As noted earlier, this wasn't the first time it happened and it probably won't be the last given the future. [...] Anyway, the situation is what it is now. The Devils will have 16 skaters tomorrow unless some move is made prior to the game in Buffalo against the Sabres. There may or may not be more moronic commentary about it.
Or, as you put it so inscrutably well, "it probably won't be the last given the future."
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Did you catch the tweet by Mike Hume at ESPN, joking that in 4-6 weeks it’ll be elective surgery for Zubrus? I feel bad for Devils fans because it’s got to be a rough place. You don’t want to see your team shorthanded, but if you rail against them for it you’re essentially saying the league should act, impose more fines and penalties, furthering weakening the team.
But the only way to truly teach the guilty parties a lesson is to show them, if you break the rules these are the consequences. There is no easy way to get around it, you make the bed and you lay in it. That bed is $59.4mm, just like it is for everyone else.
www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Oct 13, 2010 4:06 PM PDT reply actions
What I don't get...
The PA is there to protect the players as a whole right? To “unite” the players to a common goal. Why would they fight for a player to take such a large portion in the form of a salary. That is taking jobs from other players. That contract caused this situation. Am I wielding my little red book too much? Personal sacrifice for the greater good of society right?
-Dave
The PA is there to protect the players as a whole right?
In theory, yes. In practice, free agency benefits a small group of relatively elite players, and the middling majority of them, not so much. The NHLPA, like every other professional sports players union, rallies its members to perpetuate a system that grants the most benefit to a small minority of them.
There really is no point in thinking of pro sports players unions as labor unions in the traditional sense. Trade unionism is a relic of the industrial age, and it was meant to protect workers who were unskilled compared to the tradesmen and craftsmen of old, and therefore, interchangeable: coal miners, assembly line workers, etc. That model makes no sense when you try to apply it to the highly trained and exceptionally talented mercenaries who fill out the rosters of our professional sports teams.
The NHLPA may press for an investigation here, but don’t expect them to admit that the Devils’ predicament is closely related to the existence of a contract that they defended in arbitration against the NHL.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
I’m not sure I agree that it would be hypocritical of the players union to oppose the short roster. They defended the contract on the grounds that it did not violate the CBA. That was the right thing for them to do. The salary cap is a separate issue and they are acting appropriately to treat it as such.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call it hypocritical. But it would be, as DodgerBlueBalls said in another thread, replying to another of my comments, ironic.
My main point here is that the NHLPA (like its peers in other sports) seems to have a conception of itself that isn’t really appropriate to its membership.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
Maybe I should elaborate a little
I agree that the NHLPA was duty-bound to contest the League’s nullification of the contract, under its own understanding of its mission. I’m saying that its understanding of its mission isn’t entirely self-consistent, given the actual, real-life consequences of what it does and what it helps perpetuate.
Trade unionism was created from out of a view of the world that expressed outrage at inequalities of class and wealth. And yet vast disparities in wealth, opportunity and job security exist in professional sports. Given the salary cap, there is no way that Kovalchuk could get his “My Dick is Bigger and Ovechkin’s” contract without squeezing lesser-status players, either directly or indirectly.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
Conspiracy? :)
Is anyone surprised that Salvador and Rolston are the ones on LTIR? Both players were the ones that the fans wanted gone to get some cap relief. Very convenient for Lou. The Devils just got $5+ million extra to use to call up some players.
Anyone else expecting a set back in Rolston’s recovery?
It is rather convenient, but you have to remember that Salvador is 34 and Rolston is 37 so the odds of them being injured are probably greater since their bodies are older and have been through lots of abuse with all their seasons in the NHL. I doubt the Devils try to extend their injuries to avoid the cap because its a circumvention but then again who knows
It's the normal friction of the season cranked up to 11
I thought it was risky for NJD to have only 20 players on the roster just because nicks and scratches accumulate over a season, and you need to swap guys in and out for their own well-being. I didn’t anticipate that it would affect them this much this soon.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
Well, it is New Jersey. After how two-plus decades living there, I’m sure Lou knows a guy…
“Hey Bryce, we can do this the easy way or the hard way. Preseason game. Second period. You take a fall.”
Lighthouse Hockey: You say that like Streit and Okposo and Schremp and Tavares and Wisniewski were important.
by Dominik on Oct 14, 2010 9:52 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great sig line, Dom. I’m impressed
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 14, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Pot calling the kettle black.
If you took that same advice, you wouldn’t know quisp was posting about the Devils.
by Kingsfan99 on Oct 13, 2010 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
And what right — ethical, legal, moral or otherwise — do you have to tell Quisp what to write and what not to right? It’s his blog, and the last time I checked, this is a free country.
You’re just taking it out on him and his readers because the truth hurts. Well, that ain’t his fauit. So suck on it.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
He's entitled to his comment, if that's what it is.
Also, it’s not “my” blog. It’s SBN’s blog. Just like ILWT is SBN’s blog. This debate is SBN talking to itself. Which is as it should be.
Remind me to send him a box of punctuation for Xmas.
Wait till this year.
by Quisp on Oct 13, 2010 9:31 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
You might want to show him the correct use of the gerund as well.
by 88fingerslukee on Oct 14, 2010 7:20 AM PDT up reply actions
All his topics are belong to us!
In Dinglebarn We Trust
by Niesy on Oct 14, 2010 4:49 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your argument, really, is just "mind your own business." Here's why it's my business.
1) This is a CBA issue. It wouldn’t matter if the Devils were involved or not. The CBA concerns everyone who follows the NHL.
2) If you bothered to do your homework, you would see that I was discussing this two years ago when it was Calgary.
3) It’s necessary to follow the minutiae of cap management if you are really going to understand how teams are put together.
4) As you obviously know (otherwise why these little visits?), this is yet another episode in the continuing Kovalchuk farce, which — ironically — was not covered reliably or with anything approaching coherence by SBN’s Devils blog, but instead was covered here, on the Kings blog, where the story started.
5) It started here because I predicted the original rejection. And continued because I had the bad form to predict the arbiter’s ruling, not only his final decision, but his reasoning point-by-point.
6) My personal feeling is that ILWT’s coverage of the Kovalchuk situation is irrational and embarrassing. People on the outside don’t distinguish between this SBN blogger or that one. One embarrassing blogger paints the rest of us with the same brush.
7) When someone posts gibberish about (in this instance) the CBA, the cap, the arbitration process, etc., it spreads like wild-fire and then we all have to deal with ignorance gone viral. The only way to combat that is to reassert the facts, so that they are right there, linked to and embedded in the original gibberish. That way, when people Google the topic, you see both. Otherwise, mind-numbing stupidity reigns. Which it probably does anyway, since anything I say is dwarfed by the massive readership of ILWT.
8) Saying I should “butt out” when another team flouts the rules is like saying I should butt out when an opposing player runs my goalie. Who exactly do you think is harmed when one team violates the rules, whether it’s in a game between two teams trying to get a win or in a season among thirty teams trying to win the cup?
Wait till this year.
by Quisp on Oct 13, 2010 9:28 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Butt out and mind your own comment.
Why do we even have replies either? Nothing should be able to be commented on, referred OR alluded to.
by 88fingerslukee on Oct 14, 2010 7:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Wow pretty sure he can do what he wants with his own site…lol…smh
In an Ideal world I would have all ten fingers on my left hand so my right hand could just be a fist for punching.
Could this just be the start?
I don’t want to hear that playing with 9 forwards does not hurt the team, because it really does. It takes away how fresh the rest of the lines are not being able to throw the 4th line on for a shift here or there.
Arnott- has played 65 games a year the last 2 seasons
.
Elias- has been nicked up and I would expect he will miss 8 games or more, last season he played 58 games but the 3 seasons before that he has played 77/74/75 games but he gets nicked up pretty easy
.
Tallinder- had a full season last year (contract year) but the 3 seasons before that has averaged 61 games a year
.
White- played 81 games last year but the 3 season before that averages 66 games a year. He plays a physcal game who I would expect to continue this tread as he gets older
.
Volchenkov- last 3 seasons averges 66 games a year (who is hurt right now) and will continue to miss a lot of games due to his game (blocking shots ect.)
I think we have just seen the tip of the iceberg with the Devils cap problems this year. I would expect most of these players I have listed to play to their average number of games over the last few seasons. I am sure there will be exceptions where we will see a full season out of a player we expect to miss time but we might see a durable player miss more time then we expected. Even more so if you are playing with a short bench, the more stress and playing time, the greater the injury risk is. Like it was mentioned, a game or 2 is totally different then playing extened time with a short bench imo.
In an Ideal world I would have all ten fingers on my left hand so my right hand could just be a fist for punching.
The one thing the devils have to do to not get fined is to have at least 20 players they could theoretically dress. As Volchenkov and Rolston were not on LTIR, they had a 20-player roster. It is perfectly legal for MacLean to write their names on the lineup card even if they aren’t in the building. (this is normally because a callup is stuck in traffic and won’t make it in time for the first period) He obviously wouldn’t do this because that means he can’t put them retroactively on LTIR, but he could.
However, when PL3 got suspended (hence the 15-skater game), they were, for one day, only running 19 active players (because they couldn’t sign Mair until PL3 cleared waivers), which isn’t allowed. The real question is if the NHLPA thinks that “Suspended player + over cap” is a valid emergency situation (one of the IWLT guys linked some Daly quotes saying that they considered injuries, suspensions, and cap space valid emergencies, but Fehr is the one that matters here)
Also, that whole “sent him down for non-cap related reasons” is true. He sent him down for CBA reasons because he had to sign another player or the NHLPA would have started an article 26 investigation if he just did nothing.
Basically, as long as you can theoretically dress 20 skaters, then it’s legal. If that is impossible, its against the CBA.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Everything wrong with the Sabres is Drew Stafford's fault.
Luc Alert!
I believe I just overheard that Luc Robitaille will be appearing on Toronto Fan590AM’s Hockey Central show at 9:40am today. I’ll make a fanpost with the audio archive later, but if you want to listen live, here you go.
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 14, 2010 9:24 AM PDT reply actions
Bad information
I was wrong. Luc is going to be on the show at 9:40am tomorrow.
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 14, 2010 9:44 AM PDT up reply actions
The term "goon ops" has opened up a whole new world for me
So many plans!
http://inplaynoouts.blogspot.com/ - A blog about teams I like, written by me.
Wonder how baseball fans would feel if a team signed a shortstop and dropped 3 pitchers from the roster and went 168 games in short rotation?
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
Well, considering they play 162 games...
…the fans might be confused.
OR
…content that they made the playoffs despite losing in 4 games.
OR
…sad that they won the tie-breaker game at the end of the regular season and then got swept in the Division Series.
by 88fingerslukee on Oct 15, 2010 11:09 AM PDT up reply actions
OK, I’ll settle for the sweep. Thanks for the help.
I suppose its safe to say that where a fan may miss a few pitchers, I wouldn’t because I have no more idea how many they carry nor do have any idea of how many games they play. Cricket is the only sport I watch less then baseball.
Lucky guess on my part. Thanks for saving my bacon.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
HELP PLEASE!!!
I know this has nothing to do with this topic….but im going to be in carlsbad this weekend without cable!
Does anyone know of any decent sports bars where my wife, friends, and I can go get smashed and watch the game?
Anyone….
Oh and i am just laughing on the inside at the Devils!
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
I don’t live in North County, but quite a few of my co-workers do. Let me ask around for you and report back.
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 15, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
The best place for great beer and damn good food in Carlsbad is Pizza Port. Your head will spin from how many great beers they serve up there. It’s a casual place with lots of TV’s so you could most likely ask someone to turn the game on for you there and you’ll be all set. Here’s their website and let me know what you think of the choice beers.
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 15, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Thanks!
I will definitely be checking that out tonight!
We leave from the high desert at 230pm…so we should make it with plenty of time to get a pizza and try about ten different beers!
I like places like that…Yard House is another one….
Anyways thanks!
Now back to Bob with the play by play…..
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Some other places for barhoping that were recommended to me
Grand Avenue Bar & Grill (aka The G-spot)
O’Sullivan’s
Mr. Peabody’s
And apparently the is a very good reason why the Boar Cross’n is known as the “Whore Crossing” by all the locals. I guess they have a lot of good sports there.
Have fun.
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 15, 2010 12:31 PM PDT up reply actions
Maybe we will do a new bar for each period…that will kill the 15 min intermissions!
Thanks DBB- i do appreciate it!
My wife may object to me looking for “whores” or this may possibly end up being the best weekend of my life!!!
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Not sure if you’ll see this post before game time, but my co-worker says that your best bet for being able to watch the game at a Carlsbad bar will be at The G-Spot (Grand Ave Bar & Grill).
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Oct 15, 2010 5:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I was in Seattle for work this week and missed the game tues.....
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Creating a toxic environment
The Devils continually running a short bench, and losing while doing it, in the long run is going to create a very toxic environment in the dressing room. How long do the other players keep taking this, hearing the boos of the fans and knowing that it’s all the short-sighted owner’s and one greedy teammate’s fault, before they start turning on one another? If this were really a successful format for a team, don’t you think all the other teams would be doing it?
Drop the puck, drop the mitts...Now that's hockey!
I think it is hard to blame the player (as much as I don’t care for him). This mess is on Lou imo, he has not been good with cap management since the lockout.
In an Ideal world I would have all ten fingers on my left hand so my right hand could just be a fist for punching.
Did you not hear what Lou said at the Kovadonnachuk conference?
Lou was ACTUALLY against the ORIGINAL contract and HAS hinted that this signing was over his head and that the OWNER WANTED to get him signed to WHATEVER HE WANTED!















