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I'll Bite: Who is Leiweke Talking About?

Tim Leiweke said this to Rich Hammond last week: "We, as an organization, are going to have some decisions to make between now and July 1, and we’re going to have to see who we lose and how that affects us, and we’re going to have to see who’s ready to take a step up within the system. We will sit down with Dean and Hex and Terry and evaluate it [...] [Lombardi] has been pretty vocal, and we hear him loud and clear, that we still have a few pieces to fill in here."

Non-specific comments like this get my attention on days between games. It makes me want to make lists and charts. Who are we potentially going to lose? Who might be ready to step up? Bullet points!

Without those guys, this is what we've got for 2010-11:

Star-divide

Ryan Smyth - Anze Kopitar - Justin Williams

LW2 - Jarret Stoll - Dustin Brown

LW3 - Michal Handzus - Wayne Simmonds

Rich Clune - C4 - RW4

(F13, F14)

Rob Scuderi - Drew Doughty

Jack Johnson - Matt Greene

Davis Drewiske - D6

(Peter Harrold)

Jonathan Quick

Erik Ersberg

That's 16 players, cap hit of $44.6MM. I spitball that to $12MM of cap space with a bonus cushion of a further $4-5MM (more if Schenn or Hickey join the team next year).

  • Before we get to the Frolov question, I want to address the most interesting cross-roads coming up this year, and that's Brayden Schenn. He almost made the team this year, as an 18 year old. He was sent back to juniors to more or less take over, be a leader, "learn to win", and just generally have a career year down there, which he has proceeded to do. He can't play in the AHL next season, because he's too young, so it's either the wheat-free Kings or the Wheat Kings next season. I think Lombardi will tell Leiweke he thinks Schenn makes the jump this fall. Although he's a natural center, I don't really see him playing 4th line minutes. I think the obvious spot for him for next year is LW on Handzus's line: Schenn/Handzus/Simmonds. 
  • Are there any LWs who can take Frolov's spot on the second line? The only choices from our current depth chart are Parse and Modin. Both those guys are excellent depth players right now. I personally would sign Modin and stick him on the fourth line with occasional power-play minutes. In fact, let's just do that. Fourth line: Clune/C4/Modin. But I don't think we're going to see anyone rise up from the prospect pool to be a better option at LW2 than Frolov.
  • So it's Frolov or a UFA from outside. Who are these outsiders?  One who comes to mind is Patrick Marleau. He's older and more experienced than Frolov, scores more points and is of course more expensive. 
  • The other is Ilya Kovalchuk. I don't know what's going to happen with Kovalchuk, whether Lombardi thinks he would fit within the system, whether Lombardi considers him of good character, or whether he cares. I don't know if it's true that Kovalchuk's wife wants to live in Beverly Hills. I don't know what the deal is with that picture of him in a kilt. But I do know that his cap hit would be somewhere between $7MM and $8MM (front-loaded mega-term contract) and that would suck up a lot of cap room. Of course, Marleau would too, but a couple of million less in cap hit. Do the Kings have that kind of space?
  • There is a fork in the road here. Frolov (or a UFA of equal value) on one path and a bigger UFA on the other. If Lombardi wants to go for the bigger fish, then Frolov is gone, and the Kings have about $4MM to spend on three-to-five players. If they opt for Frolov (or similarly-paid UFA), they have a few million more to spend.
  • However, if Schenn is assumed, his cap hit will be around $3.4MM with his bonus figured in. With maybe $1.5MM for Modin, we're over the cap with at least two defensemen and two forwards left to sign or promote. There would be about $6MM in bonus cushion which Lombardi could spend, though he would get in trouble if those bonuses had to be paid out. Let's say Lombardi is willing to take a little bit of risk there and use part of the bonus cushion. Just for fun, so we can put Schenn in.
  • Of the RFAs, I think Richardson gets a new deal, for $1MM-ish. Which puts us a couple $MM over (which the bonus cushion would cover). Then we would be looking at something like this:

Ryan Smyth - Anze Kopitar - Justin Williams

[Marleau/Kovalchuk/Frolov/etc.] - Jarret Stoll - Dustin Brown

Brayden Schenn - Michal Handzus - Wayne Simmonds

Rich Clune - Brad Richardson - Fredrik Modin

(F13, F14)

Rob Scuderi - Drew Doughty

Jack Johnson - Matt Greene

Davis Drewiske - D6

(Peter Harrold)

Jonathan Quick

Erik Ersberg

  • And those are good lines. But we've got a problem on D. With SOD gone, Lombardi is going to want to sign another solid veteran guy (or re-sign SOD). In fact, SOD/UFA needs to be plugged in. Now we're $3MM over the cap (still covered by the bonus cushion, but in a dangerous area).
  • At which point, there's the issue of, F13, F14 and D7.
  • For the D, are any of the prospects going to be NHL ready? My guess is Hickey and Teubert spend an entire year in Manchester. Muzzin? Probably also AHL-bound. Voynov? Possible. And his deal wouldn't be appreciably richer than Drewiske's or Harrold's. So that probably works. Harrold can take the F13 spot. 
  • Having said that, I see a potential "toughness" issue coming up if and when DL cuts Ivanans loose. So maybe Muzzin is an option, instead of Voynov or Drewiske. Don't know if he's ready though.
  • For the forwards, I think Moller and Loktionov probably will be looked to for a handful of games with the Kings, but will otherwise grow into their bodies in Manchester. Clifford could make it, too. He almost did this year (sort of). But I think he will be allowed to ripen for another year. Maybe Lewis or Cliche will be F14. If not them, then someone of equal cap hit or less.
  • Re toughness: Clifford is an option, but not if he's going to be a frequent healthy scratch. This is the nice thing about Peter Harrold. He can sit in the press box for a month or two and then come in and play like he did last night.
  • Bernier will replace Ersberg. But that doesn't effect the cap situation much.
  • And with those changes, we get:

Ryan Smyth - Anze Kopitar - Justin Williams

[Marleau/Kovalchuk/Frolov/other] - Jarret Stoll - Dustin Brown

Brayden Schenn - Michal Handzus - Wayne Simmonds

Rich Clune - Brad Richardson - Fredrik Modin [Clifford?]

(Peter Harrold, Trevor Lewis)

Rob Scuderi - Drew Doughty

Jack Johnson - Matt Greene

Viatcheslav Voynov - [SOD/UFA: Lilja/Mitchell/other]

Davis Drewiske

Jonathan Quick - Jonathan Bernier

  • Cap Geek's calculator puts this line up at about $60MM cap hit (for the Kovi/Marleau end of the spectrum), which sucks up most of the bonus cushion and probably means no to Kovalchuk or else someone is going to have to get dealt to make room. Or else Lombardi goes with the Frolov (or similarly priced) option. Which probably a lot of people will see as treading water. Unless Fro scores a historically significant goal a couple of playoff rounds from now. 
  • Next year is Doughty's contract year, and the chances of him being in the running for the Norris are pretty decent (given that they're talking about him for Norris now). So factor that in. Sign Kovalchuk etc., and some fan favorites are going to be forced out. Something eventually will have to give.
  • The more I think about it, the more I like the Fro option. Go Fro. Score some OT winners.
  • It might actually be a better option to stick with Frolov and try to get a slightly pricier UFA defenseman, someone a bit more solid, like a Scuderi Jr.. You know, SOD, but not as old. Andreas Lilja and Willie Mitchell come to mind.

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I could see Clifford possibly making the team and taking Clune’s spot as an agitator on the 4th line plus Clifford could jump up and see some time on the third line if Schenn ends up being the 2nd line center or due to some injury that happens.

Also, I’m hoping Lombardi can get Marleau this offseason because I see him as kinda a middle ground between Kovalchuk and Frolov in terms of money demanded. I could also see Fro coming back for about 3 mil that he is getting now I believe because he did have a few good seasons but last season and this season he’s kinda taken a step back in terms of points and offensive production. Maybe they could sign him and marleau(i know that’d really stretch the cap and im not really taking that into account a lot now) and have lines something like:

Smyth-Kopitar-Williams
Marleau-Stoll-Brown
Frolov-Handzus-Simmonds
Clifford-Richardson-Modin

I could see Stoll possibly being moved to make room for Schenn and I dont know if Williams will retain his top line spot but that seems like 4 very solid lines

by GoKings09 on Apr 18, 2010 7:57 PM PDT reply actions  

Doughty, Johnson and Simmonds

Love the non-wheat line, that was great.

Its funny, since I read the Leiweke article (and before) I have been thinking about this.

I think the most important thing we should be focusing on is signing Doughty, Johnson and Simmonds to long term contracts. But….

1) At (almost) all costs Doughty must be resigned. I think the sooner we renegotiate, the cheaper he will be. If we could do something like we did with Quick, or Chicago did with Kane and Toews, that would be best. (This is the baseball fan in me buying out arbitration)
2) Our system is overflowing with puck moving D. As much as DL and I love JJ, with Hickey and Voynov bursting out of the system, he might be gone. What would we get for him?

If we sign Marleau (6.5 MM) or Kovi (8 MM) at too many years, that basically ties our hands with…

3) We might be caught choosing between Brown and Simmonds. If I had a Venn diagram to show, it would their skills nearly overlap. I think Brownie draws more penalties, but somehow Simmer gets more under the other teams skin. As Simmer goes RFA (11-12) we will need to choose who we allocate money too. Without making a big FA splash we could keep both.
4) Without doing a whole lot of research this brings us to sheepish Frolov as our only option, he buys into TMs system, and he has the potential to score 30 goals a year, and he will be cheap, but he might want to sign forever.

We have a good minors graduation rate, but we need to keep pushing people out since young players are cheaper than their FA equivalent player therefore…

4) I think if Teubert can step up (and stay sane), that is where we are going to get our Defensive D-man (at only 975k, more than half of what OD would cost us) and be our toughness (which hurts, since he will not be around to kill penalties he takes)
5) If Teubert does not step up, then resign OD late into camp. He is old and OD will be probably not be in demand. Puckprospectus’ numbers love OD, but I have seen him too many times not moving his feet. He is also super calm, which Teubert isnt. I have mixed emotions about not resigning him.
6) Loktionov was called up before Schenn. I know that was because he was in the AHL instead of JRs but he has to be in next years plan at the NHL level.
7) Moeller needs to be more in our next years plan. I like Moeller, but will he make our team much more better than another year of Modin on the 4th line? Will Modin sign for way less than 3.25MM? Also we do not want to be tied to 4-5 more years of him.

And the thing I consider the most important:
8) Stoll and Smyth leave 12-13 (9.75MM), Williams and Handzus leaves 11-12 (7.5MM at the same time JJ and DD become RFA), Modin, Halpern (bye-bye), Fro, OD, Ivanans, Jones (11.5MM). Do we have in our system to replace these people (assuming they leave, and most should unless they take a pay cut), who are cheap enough for us to make a big FA splash?

The biggest question is

Ryan Smyth – Anze Kopitar – Justin Williams
Alexander Frolov – Jarret Stoll – Dustin Brown
Brad Richardson – Michal Handzus – Wayne Simmonds
And and energy line of (I know they need more than 8 min a game to develop)
Oscar Moeller – Brayden Schenn – Andrei Loktionov
(Peter Harrold, Richard Clune)
Rob Scuderi – Drew Doughty
Jack Johnson/Thomas Hickey – Matt Greene
Viatcheslav Voynov – SOD/Teubert
(Davis Drewiske)
Jonathan Quick – Jonathan Bernier

Be better than this years version? (assuming everyone gets a little bit better as they get one year older) Do we have to make a splash to take advantage of DD, Kopi and Browns prime?

Wow, that is way longer than I thought it would be. Now my wife will make fun of me for the next 20 minutes.

by Clever Kings Handle on Apr 18, 2010 9:11 PM PDT reply actions  

re your (8)

I can see Handzus re-signing at a hometown discount and locking himself in as the fixture center of the third line. Stoll, on the other hand, will have to go as soon as Schenn, Moller or Loktionov are ready to step into the C2 role. Not next year, probably. But year after next? Let’s look a couple of years down the road…

Smyth/Kopitar/Simmonds
Frolov/Moller/Loktionov
Clifford/Schenn/Brown
Clune/Stoll-Handzus/Richardson

Scuderi/Doughty
Johnson/Hickey-Voynov
Muzzbert/Greene

Bernier/Quick

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 11:02 PM PDT up reply actions  

Moeller

I agree with your Zeus idea. Thats totally dependent if he falls off a cliff (he will be 35 when his contract expires). Stoll will be 31. I know Stoll will give a huge hometown discount, he just built a house in the South Bay.

by Clever Kings Handle on Apr 18, 2010 11:24 PM PDT up reply actions  

Wow, I feel like I've been reading the New York Review of Books, or something

And I mean that in a good way.

I would just add these relatively minor observations:

As much as I like what Modin has brought to the Kings, I think it will be hard to re-sign him. Basically, the better he does with the Kings, the more money he will command on the open market. That is, the more GMs will be willing to over-pay for him. If he’s worth re-signing, I think he’ll get at least one offer higher than 1.5 mil/year. Plus, DL will have to consider his recent injury history. Freddy has dodged the bullet in his short time with the Kings so far, but a full season is a much larger sample size.

Also: I feel validated in my belief that DL will feel that he cannot afford Kovalchuk because it’s more important to him to lock up the core of the team to long-term contracts, and there isn’t really enough money for both tasks. I was soundly ridiculed for saying as much in a thread on Hammond’s blog, in one case being assured that “they can play around with the cap hit” by someone who had obviously not done any math to back up that argument. A bunch of folks are going to have some “I told you so’s” coming to them this summer.

Personally, I suspect that Lombardi’s first option come July 1 is to see if he can’t reach a deal with Frolov’s agent. I suspect that 4 mil/year will be his upper limit. If that doesn’t work, he goes after Marleau and opens up the purse strings a little more.

As to what happens to SOD/SOD’s box: I’m also torn on whether or not to re-up him. For sentimental reasons, it would be nice to have him back, and he does seem to be playing better of late. But athletes at his age deteriorate, sometimes rapidly. So I can’t say that he offers a great value proposition. Surely, there will be mid-level UFA d-men who will offer better value?

by DougX on Apr 18, 2010 10:00 PM PDT reply actions  

I do so love the "they can play around with the cap" people

all of whom are f***ing idiots. It’s not rocket science. Learn to add. (this is my response to them.)

I don’t think Modin will be very expensive at all. Otherwise, why did Columbus give him away literally for nothing? (answer: to get his salary off their books for a month.) He’s old-ish. He’s not going to get more than $2MM (unless he gets the Conn Smythe trophy, then all bets are off). But I agree that if you assume he’s going to cost more than $1.5 then we have better options on the farm.

I love Moller and Loktionov. Love. And if you asked me who I want to be on our second line (or third “speed” line or whatever you want to call it) in two years, it would be them. And they might stick next year. But I think it’s reasonable to expect another year of (literal, physical) growth. Same with Hickey. And that’s cool. Because we have a log-jam in the middle-six forward neighborhood anyway.

I think Lombardi will be able to sign Frolov for under $4MM cap hit. Whether he is interested in going after bigger fish has a lot to do with what he wants to do on defense, because Jones and SOD are probably gone (I do think SOD is too old to play another year, but what do I know). If Lombardi wants to bring in someone better than a Jones level person (otherwise, sign Jones, right?), that’s likely to cost a couple of million at least.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:13 PM PDT up reply actions  

**Language Alert**

I know you mean well, but using words like “add” when talking to Hammond’s bloggers about cap hits is only gonna make them think you are intelligent, and you know how productive that can be.

by Player-X on Apr 19, 2010 8:05 AM PDT up reply actions  

signing Doughty

I agree Lombardi will or should try to do this sooner rather than later. Doughty is not going to suck next year and he’s going to command exponentially more if DL waits till the end of what might well be a Norris year for him.

I have no doubt, none, zero, that Doughty wants to be signed and will be signed. I don’t think this will be a problem at all.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:18 PM PDT up reply actions  

Simmonds v. Brown

If it comes down to a choice between Simmonds and Brown, Simmonds will win. Brown is now solidly a 20 goal scorer who had a season scoring 30. This is what Simmonds will be (at least). Brown is a glorified third-line RW. Simmonds, at this point, is potentially more than that.

Also, Lombardi drafted Simmonds. He didn’t draft Brown. This matters.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:21 PM PDT up reply actions  

RE: Simmonds v. Brown

I don’t know Lombardi obviously but he doesn’t seem like the kind of GM to be like well I drafted this guy not that guy. I agree that Simmonds would probably win out between him and Brown but I don’t know if it will necessarily come to that because I don’t think Simmonds is going to get a huge raise when he re-signs. Probably about 2-3(closer to 2 if I had to guess) million I would think and Brown is signed for a while at 3 million so we could keep Simmonds as our 3rd liner and Brown as second line winger easily.

by GoKings09 on Apr 18, 2010 10:25 PM PDT up reply actions  

true, but the fact that Simmonds and Brown are both basically playing the 3rd line RW role

is a problem now, and it’s only going to get worse. Okay, maybe it’s a problem DL wants to avert. Maybe not. Hard to know what his real feelings are.

As far as who drafted which players… the only players left who were not drafted or acquired by Lombardi are Kopitar, Brown, Frolov, Parse and Quick. I think a GM is always (if only unconsciously) partial to his own picks. I don’t mean to suggest this is some kind of driving motivation though.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Simmonds v. Brown

I think the leadership is there. I love Brown, my pocketbook reflects this, but I think Simmonds wins out because of age, and a few more years of cheapness.

What do we get out of Brown? Can we get a LW sniper prospect, and maybe some draft picks.

Brown, if you dig this deeply through the net I love you, I am really sorry to even think of trading you.

by Clever Kings Handle on Apr 18, 2010 10:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

Brown

yes, it’s sacrilege, isn’t it? Brown’s value is high and will stay high unless he has another sub-par year. I don’t think Brown is going anywhere for awhile. But eventually, a couple of years from now, dominos will start to fall. Not next year.

And, look, Simmonds could emerge as the obvious top-six candidate, at which point Brown is no longer redundant. He’s the third line RW. Which is great, if you ask me, because he’s great in that role.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

We can keep both if...

We don’t go after a BIG FA signing. But Brown’s contract is an Albatross as a 3rd Line Winger. I was with you at the Kovi trade talk, his value is soaring. I just feel bad since the guy almost had Lasik surgery in game for the team.

Plus he is underrated as a guy who draws penalties. But my posts of my fanboydom of Brown (on this thread) ends here.

by Clever Kings Handle on Apr 18, 2010 11:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

love brown, contract is not necessarily a problem on the third line

he took a pretty big discount, relative to what people thought might happen

i agree in principle, but think if he grows fully into the leadership role, the salary will be totally worth it

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 11:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

d prospects/depth chart

puck-moving: Doughty, Johnson, Harrold, Voynov, Hickey, Martinez, DesLauriers
big mean trees: Teubert, Muzzin, Campbell
stay-at-home: Scuderi, Greene, Drewiske

Scuderi/Doughty
Johnson/xx
xx/Greene
xx/xx

next year, you might go with Harrold and Drewiske as 7 and 8 (i.e. press box regulars). But there are two other spots in the top six there, and you need a responsible presence to balance JJ. A fleet-of-foot guy could be paired with Greene. Hickey or Voynov, or even Teubert. With Greene taking on the role of SOD, mentor to the kids. But ideally we need another Scuderi to be paired with JJ. I really don’t think Hickey or Teubert will be ready next year. Teubert has a lot of growing to do (not having played against men yet), and Hickey basically missed this entire year in the AHL (though he’s back now). Maybe if he has a great playoffs, he might give himself a boost.

I think Voynov is a good bet for next season though. So hypothetically make the 3rd pair Voynov/Greene, and then plug someone else into the Johnson pair. Someone DL brings in either as a UFA or via trade. Scuderi 2.0.

I would love to be surprised by Muzzin this fall, but I think that’s wishful.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:37 PM PDT reply actions  

Scuderi 2.0

Scuderi is great, but his contract will also be weighing us down towards the end. I really do not want another FA signing of 30 yo+ D-man into his late 30’s.

My point with the 2nd defensive pairing is internal is cheap. But JJ does need a Scuderi to be yin to his assignment-blowing yang. Maybe Doughty is advanced enough he could take the assignment of Scuderi 2.0, with JJ pairing with Scuderi. JJ and Doughty out with each other to take the extra minutes the youngun’ would be getting.

by Clever Kings Handle on Apr 18, 2010 11:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

re Johnson trade value

another player whose trade value is high, but I don’t think DL would move him before he’s seen what Voynov and/or Hickey can do at this level. Same reason he wouldn’t trade Quick or Bernier until both have been given some time on the big stage.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 18, 2010 10:42 PM PDT reply actions  

Breakfeast with Lombardi

JJ was mentioned with Doughty and Kopi as cornerstones of the team. He is probably not going anywhere. The EC media is always trading JJ back east, so I got caught up in that.

by Clever Kings Handle on Apr 18, 2010 11:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

Dan Hamhuis should be looked at, he'll be asking for lots of money, but oh well

Once Schenn makes this team, I can see him either a) being the reason one of Stoll or Handzus get dealt or b) he’ll have to become a winger, unless he wants to center the 4th line.

I hope we re-sign Brad Richardson, that was such a good pick up by Lombardi, he didn’t pan out in his first season but he’s definitely been the most improved player this year. Him & Trevor Lewis will definitely be re-signed, Lewis is basically in the same position as Purcell was this year, got to show up or you’re going to be dealt big guy

by AKAY47 on Apr 19, 2010 7:43 AM PDT reply actions  

Kovalchuk-Kopitar-Williams
Smyth-Stoll-Brown
Clifford-Handzus-Simmonds
Richardson-Schenn-Lewis/Clune/Modin/

Scuderi-Doughty
Johnson-Hamhuis
Greene-Hickey/Voynov/Drewiske

Quick
Bernier

that’s a beautiful lineup, no?

by AKAY47 on Apr 19, 2010 7:45 AM PDT reply actions  

yes, except for the part where you're about $7MM over the cap

even sucking up the entire bonus cushion, you’re more than $2MM over. and that’s assuming $8MM cap hit for Kovi (which most would say is very low — but I think that’s about where it will be).

I think in your model it would be Hamhuis or Kovalchuk, but not both. the question then becomes, is it better to have frolov and hamhuis or kovalchuk and SOD/Jones?

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Apr 19, 2010 10:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think to rectify the cap hit issue, Stoll and Williams become expendable. Stoll certainly if Schenn makes the team — he could step into the second line center role. Then you could use Simmonds on the first line RW and Halpern (I think we need to try to resign Halpern) on the 3rd. Richardson and Clune and whomever on the 4th — we don’t resign Modin, sorry.

I’d prefer to resign O’Donnell than go after Hamhuis — that would keep the cap lower. Voynov and/or Teubert come up as new D — Drewiske has no upside. Hickey has basically lost a year to injury so he stays in Man.

Works?

by m_and_m on Apr 19, 2010 2:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

Let's not forget the trade deadline

I think Lombardi will not want to go hard up against the salary cap at the beginning of the season, and that’s another reason why signing Kovalchuk is probably impractical. He will want the flexibility to add a veteran without having to give up a roster player during the season, like at the trade deadline.

IIRC, Billy Beane, the GM of the Oakland A’s, has said that the first half of the season (baseball, but I think it applies to hockey just as well) is about finding out where your team needs help, and that shapes what you do at the trade deadline.

by DougX on Apr 19, 2010 12:12 PM PDT reply actions  

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