Kovalchuk's future output foretold!
Here's another way to look at the data from this weekend's post on the careers of 50-goal scorers (from now on, "50GS"). I took those numbers and focused entirely on two things: (1) the most goals anyone has ever scored at a given age, and (2) the mean within the 50GS group, at a given age.
Then I graphed the mean and the peak goal total for each year, plotting them against Kovalchuk's goal totals so far. I then made a very, very (very) rough estimation of a projection for Kovalchuk. I calculated the ratio of IK's totals to the average and to the peak in each year, and projected those numbers out to age 44. The numbers to date show Kovalchuk to be consistently above average among 50GS, but well below the best number for all 50GS at any given age. The projection simply (and somewhat primatively) carries this through. (I could just as easily have taken a sharpie and drawn a line more or less where I thought it would go, given the other lines. But I used the numbers instead. Scientific, I know!)The dip to zero on the Kokvalchuk (green) line reflects the lock-out season, so ignore it. The purple line is the projection of Kovalchuk's goal totals through the next sixteen seasons. Since no 50GS has ever played at age 44, there is no data, so it's not reflected on the graph.
The chart under the graph shows the (past, present or future) 50GS who scored the most goals at any given age, the average for each age in the population of 50GS, and Kovalchuk's numbers.
[click on each chart/graph for a high-res version]
Some observations:
- The average output among 50GS peaks at age 26, with an average of 38 goals.
- The average retirement age among 50GS is 35.
- The average number of goals scored by a 50GS between age 27 and 35, is 225.
- If the player continues to 43, the total rises to 376.
- If one player were responsible for all the high totals in the second column, he would retire with 803 career goals. I will take this to be the "greatness" limit.
- Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career. As a goal-scorer, he was apparently better than my greatness limit. But let's look at what happened to him after age 27. New graph:
- (Gretzky didn't play in the NHL until he was four months shy of 19, which rounded him to 19 in my calculations. The stupid graph couldn't comprehend starting the Gretzky line at 19, just like it couldn't comprehend not making the dopey lock-out plummet in the Kovalchuk line. I find this annoying, but I hope it doesn't cause too much teeth-grinding.)
- The Gretzky numbers drop below the Kovalchuk (projection) numbers at age 27 and with two exceptions (age 28 and age 33) stay there. This makes me think the Kovalchuk projection is if anything too generous. Certainly, I would expect the real Kovalchuk line to have more peaks and valleys than my projection has it. I'm not sure if that makes his prospects better or worse. But I think expecting him to do any better than that purple line is wishful thinking.
- And given that Kovalchuk will only be getting $6MM in the last seven years of his contract, I would be shocked if he played an NHL after his 38th birthday.
- (I don't know why the key says the Gretzky line is blue. It's not. It's black.)
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Quisp, you know how to make me feel better.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 19, 2010 9:08 PM PDT reply actions
Now...
can you calculate what their salaries would be with inflation and the cost per goal?
j/k
Again, a demonstration of why high-priced FAs are problematic
And my long experience as a sports fan tells me that this is true across all professional sports, even in the NBA, where giving a star player a long-term mega-contract actually makes some sense.
Players become eligible for the really big bucks at, or close to, the point at which they will probably decline in production. The system sets them up to be overvalued and overpaid. And owners and fans alike fall for it. They become convinced that a certain player will be the Man on the White Horse who will vanquish all of their enemies and solve all of their problems, and right at the point when most of his best years are behind him.
Years 3 onward - Kovy Deal
Quisp,
slightly off topic but what do you make of the way the reported numbers are:
6mil for the first 2 then it shoots up to 11.5million.
Didnt you mention that a new CBA and lowering of the cap could force players to take a paycut?
If so wouldnt that be a pretty smart move by Lou to have the big dollars kick in right at the time when it might get scaled back?
thanks
the 2005 (current) CBA rolled back salaries, and it makes sense that if (as reported) the owners want to lower the cap ceiling to $48MM, there would have to be another pay-cut to go with it
Whether any of that will actually be proposed is another matter. Maybe it’s just a bargaining tactic. No coincidence probably that the lowering cap rumor came out while UFAs were negotiating new deals.
Yes, in that context, the IK salary structure makes sense from Lamoriello’s point of view.
Wait till this year.
Despite this, I am still not feeling that great about this
I like DL, alot, but I am not buying this whole “we couldn’t pay him 11.5 million a year because that would affect Doughty’s negotiations.”
I hate to sound like one of Hammond’s posters, but this is not a cap-hit problem. The difference between the contract DL offered and LL offered is a 667k hit. His contract is retirement/KHL friendly at 34-35. These are great traits in a contract that is extended to such a distance to minimize cap hits.
The problem is 11.5 million and the effect it has on Doughty, JJ and Simmer. I can understand this. This was also the reason behind Cammy’s departure. But wouldn’t it be worth the additional 500k-1 million per player for those 3 to get a net increase of 5-10 goals… (maybe not? I just talked myself out of him again)
It is no secret that our biggest shortcoming is 5-5 scoring, and a guy who is capable of scoring 35-50 goals who replaces a 20-30 goal scorer is going to increase our PF (while we will have a slight uptick in PA). Therefore increasing our regular season wins (and our seeding). While I believe maturation of our younger roster will result in a rise in 5 on 5 PF, I do not think it will be enough to result in a significantly higher seeding (and therefore a better chance in the playoffs).
I think, like your previous post stated, for the additional cap hit/yearly cash outlay we should have bit the bullet and gotten someone who will help our 5 on 5 scoring now. Let’s not wait until Smyth’s or William’s contracts end to find additional scoring.
Now onto Plan B or C (with Gagne gone). I think DL’s plan all along is just to let the maturation process happen, and we will increase PF while holding PA constant.
At first I was not behind signing Kovalchuk, because he is on the downside of his career peak (I cannot find the research link, but this is where it is alluded to http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=50). But then I realized that for a cap-hit less than Kopitar we could have a pretty much guaranteed 40 goal scorer that we could wait for him to retire/KHL at 35 to get off the books. But maybe now I see that it is not worth it to upgrade 5-10 PF-PA for his salary plus the increase to next years RFA’s.
I feel lost that I now have nothing to look up on the net every day. I guess the signing of the Willie Mitchells are not quite as exciting. Maybe DL goes after Bobby Ryan, but I remember at one of his breakfasts he almost chewed out a fan for suggesting to go after anothers RFA.
by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 19, 2010 10:47 PM PDT reply actions
One of many mistakes....
Replace all the PF/PA with GF/GA…. I don’t know what came over me.
by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 19, 2010 10:49 PM PDT up reply actions
Re: 5-5 scoring: Despite the fact that Williams is injury-prone, up until the point where he broke his leg Smyth-Kopitar-Williams was a dominant top line. Who knows? it may be wishful thinking to think the three of them could stay healthy for an entire season, but at this point, it’s our best hope. I sincerely hope DL signs somebody equal to or better than Fro, or Fro himself, but with all the talent, not getting Kovalchuk is by no means damaging. It’s still very early in the game, so I’m just going to relax and think about watching DD, JJ, Kopitar, and Quick/Bernier tear it up.
I really doubt DL would go after Bobby Ryan. He’s great and we have the cash to sign, but it would be only for four years and then he wants to go UFA, and with so many RFAs for the Kings next year, it really wouldn’t be smart, in my opinion.
The problem is 11.5 million and the effect it has on Doughty, JJ and Simmer. I can understand this. This was also the reason behind Cammy’s departure. But wouldn’t it be worth the additional 500k-1 million per player for those 3 to get a net increase of 5-10 goals… (maybe not? I just talked myself out of him again)
Well, that “additional 500K-1MM” is the gift that keeps on giving. Because you have to give it not just to Doughty, Johnson, Simmonds, Bernier and Moller (next year), but to Schenn, Clifford, Muzzin, Loktionov, Hickey, Teubert, etc., not that all of these guys will end up being millionaires on the Kings, but it’s easy to see how that kind of salary inflator quickly gets out of hand.
People are fond of saying, “yeah, but Williams, Handzus and Smyth will be off the books soon.” News flash: those guys will be gone soon, but their cap savings is already spent. So, there is no “savings.” Add Stoll to that list. Those four guys will (must) be dealt over the next two seasons, or else they will just walk away for nothing.
It is no secret that our biggest shortcoming is 5-5 scoring, and a guy who is capable of scoring 35-50 goals who replaces a 20-30 goal scorer is going to increase our PF (while we will have a slight uptick in PA). Therefore increasing our regular season wins (and our seeding). While I believe maturation of our younger roster will result in a rise in 5 on 5 PF, I do not think it will be enough to result in a significantly higher seeding (and therefore a better chance in the playoffs).
There is a big difference between 35 and 50 goals. As I argued last summer re Heatley, you have to factor in the fact that Heatley/Kovalchuk don’t play defense. Kovalchuk scores 50, say, while Frolov scores 30. But Kovalchuk is a defensive sieve. So half of those goals you have to give back. Now you’ve got a 10 goal differential between Kovalchuk/Heatley and Frolov. And Kovalchuk, in particular, plays all two minutes of every power play, and many of his goals are PP goals. So a certain number of his goals are going to come directly out of the pockets of the other power-play players (the ones whose numbers are reduced due to reduced ice-time, and due to the fact that the whole power-play would now revolve around Kovalchuk — otherwise, why get a sniper, right?). Let’s conservatively say that 5 of Kovalchuk’s goals would have been scored by someone else on the powerplay anyway (this assumes that 10 of them would be goals the Kings wouldn’t have scored if he weren’t there — I would have to look closely at the numbers to get a more precise non-guess, but it’s around there). So now Kovalchuk’s added value is about 5 goals.
Five goals.
I’m not sneezing at those five goals. I just don’t think they are worth the price New Jersey had to pay.
Let’s not wait until Smyth’s or William’s contracts end to find additional scoring.
I think Williams, Stoll and Ersberg are tradeable assets right now. Handzus maybe toward the deadline, though I like him and wish he would be re-signed at a discount. Smyth is not really tradeable, and in any case is worth a lot to the Kings in terms of leadership, example, character, all that stuff.
Smyth is interesting, actually. Cap hit of $6MM(+), like Kovalchuk. 34 years old. Only two years left on his deal and that still makes him hard to move. Imagine that Smyth = Kovalchuk at 34. Only Kovalchuk would have 11 more years on his contract. Imagine the conversations we’d be having then!
I remember at one of his breakfasts he almost chewed out a fan for suggesting to go after another’s RFA.
Yes. But a trade is also possible. Anaheim will have to make a decision, if they haven’t already. And, sweet fancy moses, I would so much rather have Bobby Ryan at $5MM+ for 6 years than Kovalchuk at $6MM until 2027.
Williams, Stoll, Teubert and next year’s 1st for Ryan.
And throw a middle pick to Burke for Bill Sweatt’s rights. And that team will kick Kovalchuk’s ass.
Wait till this year.
Thanks for the response.
You are right, I had already talked myself out of my initial position in my post that the difference between Fro and Kovy would be 10 goals with defense factored in. And I did not even factor in PP.
I guess I need to just be rational and say Kovy would help the Kings nowhere near what I thought he would 1 year ago.
I like your Bobby Ryan strategy. But I do not think Anaheim would trade him to anyone in the Pacific to see him 6 times a year.
by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 20, 2010 9:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I really need to read my posts before I post them.
initial position = how angry I was that we didn’t sign Kovy because I thought he could make a huge difference in GF/GA.
And it should read Kovy would not help the Kings as much as I thought.
by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 20, 2010 10:05 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
What do you think...
Bobby Ryan’s Goal Differential is over Fro. I know Ryan is still pre-peak too.
by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 20, 2010 1:43 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I can’t help but think that the Ducks would rather trade Ryan to anyone but us — just as Chicago, Vancouver, etc. would be disinclined to deal. But I love all of your points.
What’s strange to me is that people (and Helene Elliott, cough cough) keep saying the Kings are desperate for scoring. Sure, we needed more 5 on 5 production in the playoffs, but we were ninth in the league overall — one goal behind Pittsburgh, eight behind the league leader (Washington). Is Pittsburgh “desperate for scoring”?
Of course we need to replace Fro now, but I don’t think we desperately need a dynamic game-changer if we have better goaltending next year. And there is every reason to assume that Bernier and Quick will be a solid pair and Quick won’t be overplayed this season.
Kovy would not have fit our overall system and we’d have worked around that, but I’d also be cool with getting a 20-25 goal scorer who’s a responsible two-way player instead. It’s not impossible to get someone like that via trade.
I still like our future.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
yeah, the desperate for scoring meme is silly and false
everyone wants more scoring, and also better goaltending, that and a better defensive system and also good size and speed, in order to take away the other team’s time and space, that’s really all you need. and character guys who know how to win.
i meant that to be insanely sarcastic, but it comes off as plausible. I am kidding though. I am always kidding whenever I type the phrase “take away their time and space.”
The replacement for Fro will likely be Fro.
Wait till this year.
OMG so much comment fail. I jumbled “wins” and “goals.” We were one win behind Pittsburgh. But the overall point remains. It’s not so bad, and we were ninth in both.
Note to self, never write comments with a migraine!
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Yeah, I should note to myself, never comment when using iPhone. Oops, just broke that.
by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 20, 2010 1:41 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions

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