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In Lou We Trust v. the CBA

SBN blog "In Lou We Trust" has a post up describing its case defending the legitimacy of the Kovalchuk contract. They are understandably pretty upset over there. However, there are a few points in his post that are inaccurate or misleading.

Star-divide

The NHL-Rejected Ilya Kovalchuk Contract with the New Jersey Devils & Article 50 of the NHL CBA - In Lou We Trust

Jumping back within Article 50, I'd like to point out Article 50.2.(b).(i), which governs bonuses in a contract. As far as I know, Ilya Kovalchuk's contract doesn't have any performance bonuses. In fact, there can't be any performance bonuses in Kovalchuk's contract. There is something in that section that is vitally important for all to understand. Starting from Article 50.2.(b).(i).(C) [...]:

(C) "Performance Bonuses." (1) "Performance Bonuses" means any Bonuses set forth in a Player's SPC, the payment of which is contingent on the Player's achievement of some agreed-upon benchmark(s) related to his performance as a Player or his Club's performance during a particular League Year. (2) Performance Bonuses shall be allowable under this Agreement only for:

(i) Players with Entry Level SPCs under Article 9 of this Agreement;

(ii) Players aged 35 or older as of June 30 prior to the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective, who have signed a one-year SPC for that League Year; and

(iii) Players who are "400-plus game Players" for pension purposes, and who: (i) in the last year of their most recent SPC, spent 100 days or more on the injured reserve list; and (ii) have signed a one-year SPC for the current or upcoming League Year. As to paragraphs (C)(2)(ii) and (C)(2)(iii), such Players are not limited in the length of an SPC they may sign, but in the event any such Player signs an SPC with a term of longer than one (1) year, the SPC shall not be permitted to contain Performance Bonuses.

[...] Based on these sections of Article 50 that I've referenced and/or quoted, and assuming I am not missing or misunderstanding anything, let me get this straight: Per the CBA, there is an explicit statement that says that there is no limit to how long a contract can be for a player per Article 50.2.(b).(i).

I will resist saying "Oh my God."

What you say would be true, if it weren't for the fact that:

  • The 50.2(b)(i)(C)(2)(ii-iii) provisions only deal with performance bonuses for over-35 contracts. Kovalchuk's deal, as he points out, has no performance bonuses, because it can't. His contract is not an over-35 contract because, well, he is 27.
  • The phrase "such players." This tells us exactly who this sentence applies to. Players who were injured for more than one hundred days the previous season.
  • The phrase ILWT is clinging to for dear life is "such players are not limited by the length of SPC they may sign..." Forgetting for the moment the fact that the sentence expressly excludes Kovalchuk because he wasn't injured for more than 100 days last year, there's another problem. Namely, the rest of the sentence: "...but in the event any such Player signs an SPC with a term of longer than one (1) year, the SPC shall not be permitted to contain Performance Bonuses." Translation: if a player was injured more than 100 days the previous season, he may sign an SPC with performance bonuses in it, provided that it's a one year contract. But, if it's for longer, it can't have performance bonuses. That's all.
  • His conclusion: "Let me get this straight: Per the CBA, there is an explicit statement that says that there is no limit to how long a contract can be for a player per Article 50.2.(b).(i)."  No. Per the CBA, there is an explicit statement saying that if you were injured for 100 days or more the previous season, you may have performance bonuses in your contract only if you sign a one-year deal.

Per Article 50.2.(b).(i), a team can certainly offer a contract of 2, 3, 12, 15, 17, 20, 40, or even 100,000 years long to a player.  As explicitly stated in CBA, there is no limit.  Whether it's extreme or never been done before or rare that any player ever played in the NHL for that long does not matter at all per the CBA. 17 years is a valid contract length.

  • Per above, it is not explicitly stated that there is no limit.
  • "Whether it's extreme or never been done before or rare...doesn't matter at all per the CBA."  The league will undoubtedly argue that a contract neither party intends to uphold is a circumvention of the CBA. You can disagree that this is a valid argument (as the NHLPA will), but my response to that would be this:
  • You say a 100,000 year term is allowed. That's a great example. Why not have Kovalchuk's contract be 100,000 years? $102MM/100,000 years, cap hit of about 100 bucks. Okay, we would have to fudge it so that it's the league minimum. So say we do that, and his cap hit is $550K, but he's paid $10MM for the first ten years and $5MM for a year (remember that 100% rule!) then $551K for the next 99,989 years. According to you that's just as legal as a 40, 20 or 17 year contract.
  • Since there's nothing stopping every club from making every (non ELC) contract 100,000 years long, that means that (if the league and the arbiter were to agree with you) soon everyone would have 100,000 year long contracts. So everyone would have a cap hit of $550K, or whatever the league minimum is in the year the contract is signed.
  • Since a league in which every non-ELC player has exactly the same (league minimum) cap hit regardless of actual salary undermines just about every letter of Article 50, there is simply no doubt that the 100,000 year contract is a circumvention. It renders the entire CBA useless.
  • Rendering the entire CBA useless is a circumvention of the CBA.  :)
  • And, as you say, it doesn't matter if it's 17, 40, 100,000 or even googleplex years. You say there is no explicit limit on term and so 17 and 100,000 are equally valid. I say there is an implicit limit and so 17 and 100,000 are equally invalid. Any contract would be similarly invalid, if the player cannot reasonably be expected to play to the end of the contract.
  • This alone is enough reason for the arbiter to rule in favor of the league. It's also the reason I think there's some chance (not a great big chance, politics being what they are) that the NHLPA won't even dispute. 
  • Because of the reductio ad absurdum that follows from your assertion that a 100,000 year contract does not undermine and is not a circumvention of the CBA, the only conclusion possible is that the CBA intends (and yes, intent of the CBA is mentioned in the CBA) for parties to apply common sense (say, with regard to the average lifetimes of humans, or the statistical odds that an NHL player will play at age 44 -- I believe there have been so few such players that the odds are around 1:1000 -- in other words, indistinguishable from zero).
  • The league will argue that the CBA intends and in fact requires for there to be an implicit line somewhere, factoring in a player's age. Just as 100,000 years is absurd, so is 50 years (players don't play at 77), 30 years (don't play at 57). There is no reasonable expectation that a player will make it to age 50. What about 49? 48? Yes, Chelios. One guy. 47? And so on. Where's the line?
  • The NHL will argue that this contract crossed the line.
  • If you think there is no line, as undoubtedly you do, that's fine. You're back at every player has a contract with a cap hit of $550K which I think is circumvention on an incontrovertible scale.

You may think it's dumb, stupid, ridiculous, risky, outrageous, unreasonable, terrible for the NHL, and so forth. You can keep coming up with extreme scenarios and whine about all of this until you're blue in the face. You may feel that any team should not commit a large amount of money to any player for a period of time defined as "extremely long."  You can think this should be prevented in the next CBA.

That's fine - that's just your opinion, though; as the written rules in Article 50 allow for this sort of contract.  This serves as another reminder that dumb, stupid, ridiculous, risky, outrageous, terrible for the NHL, etc. was not, is not, and will not be the same as illegal.

  • But just because it's dumb doesn't make it legal, either.
  • As far as "extreme scenarios," you are the one who mentioned 100,000 year contracts. I would argue that contracting a player to play to an age which maybe 1 in 1000 players ever reach qualifies as an "extreme scenario." Actually, the fact that it is an extreme scenario is why we're all here.
  • Nobody thinks that a team "should not commit a large amount of money to any player for a period of time defined as 'extremely long.'" The whole point is -- as you know -- they're not really committing any money to the "extremely long" part. Because if he retires, that comes off the books. They're only committing the money on the 1:1000 odds that he actually gets that far. Which is the same thing as not committing the money. 
  • But you know that. Your point is that this loophole is absolutely allowed by the CBA. My point is that strategy (longer term/lower cap hit) is allowed up to a point. The other contracts you mention employ this strategy up to a point. But beyond a point -- the point at which is it is not reasonable to expect the player to play out the full contract -- it is not allowed, and the proof is, if you allow essentially infinite length of contract, everything falls apart.

Let me take another, more forceful step: The NHL didn't come up with Articles 50.6 and 50.7 just to make contract rules more complex; they [sic] were regulations on SPCs given they were going with Average Amount to determine a team's cap hit.  The NHL wanted to add limits on contract lengths; but per player-agent and CBA author Ian Pulver, they were unsuccessful as reported by Michael Traikos of the National Post. What other reason could there be to want to add regulations except to limit what teams could do with contracts?  I don't think it's out of the realm of possibilty [sic] that someone knew about the potential for long-term, front-loaded contracts given how Article 50 was written and tried to get these limits in there.

It's also not out of the realm of being irrelevant.

They didn't full succeed so the potential has been realized multiple times for multiple players by multiple teams prior to the New Jersey Devils signing with Kovalchuk.

This is an important point you make. The NHLPA (presumably) will make the case that it's just like the other front-loaded mega-deals. The league will make the case that it's different. We're all free to disagree on whether or not this "matter of degree" issue is relevant. Wyshynski says not relevant, illegal is illegal. I say, if I get pulled over for going 90, I don't get off because the cop didn't pull over the guy going 70.

There is a line.

(There are plenty of analogies; I'm not married to any specific one. If you don't like the speeding one, I'll do another.)

If the NHL doesn't like the Kovalchuk contract (and it's clear they didn't since they rejected it outright), they have no one to blame but themselves for writing and agreeing to a CBA that defines cap hits by average amounts of the contract and specifically states that there are no limits on the length of the contract.  They tried to limit that and they failed. To try and establish a "line in the sand" based on the "spirit" of the rules and not the actual written rules after agreeing upon said rules, to me, is beyond Mickey Mouse, it's just plain Goofy.

(Again, does not specifically state that. See above.)

The CBA specifically says that anything that intends to or has the effect of circumventing the CBA is a circumvention of the CBA. That is written. The league will argue that allowing a contract in which a player agrees to perform services he has no reasonable expectation to be able to perform (using the concrete, objective historical data showing how many people have ever been able to do it), is not a contract that is permitted by the CBA, simply because assuming that there are absolutely no limits to term leads to a total collapse of the CBA. (If you've forgotten what I'm talking about, go back to the part about everyone having exactly the same tiny cap hit, despite getting league maximum salary.)

The next post will deal with the on-going procedures now that NHL rejected the Devils' contract with Kovalchuk.  [...] Here's a tease; as stated in Article 50.9.(b):

(b) Accounting for New SPCs in Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary. For any newly executed SPC agreed to between a Club and a Player, the averaged Amount of Player Salary and Bonuses provided for in such SPC shall commence counting against a Club's Averaged Club Salary upon the approval and registration of the SPC with the League. For purposes of determining a Club's Actual Club Salary and Averaged Club Salary, a rejected or de-registered SPC shall be treated in accordance with Article 11 of this Agreement.

Yep, Article 11. You'll see what I mean later tonight if you haven't put the pieces together yet.

However, be careful of confusing 11.6a (i), which applies, and 11.6a(ii) which doesn't. I'll be interested to see if you've come up with some procedural detour that takes us off the path of (1) NHLPA decides to dispute by Monday, and if they don't he's a UFA; (2) if they decide to dispute and file by Monday, they have another day to notify the arbiter; if they fail to do this, he's a UFA; (3) if the arbiter is notified within that time-frame, the league and the NHLPA meet with the arbiter and the case is decided within 48 hours of when the arbiter is notified. Around next Thursday. The arbiter has two possible verdicts. The contract is bad, in which case it is void and IK is a UFA; or the contract is good, in which case it is instantly and gloriously approved and registered to the sounds of angelic choirs.

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Comments

Display:

Only got as far as “rendering the entire CBA useless is a violation of the CBA” PRICELESS!!!

by WildKaRD on Jul 23, 2010 6:26 PM PDT reply actions  

excellent!

Nice breakdown. It’s actually quite hilarious that whoever wrote that spent so much time and energy and completely missed that it doesn’t apply at all to the Kovalchuk contract. Nothing like grasping for straws.

by -J on Jul 23, 2010 6:27 PM PDT reply actions  

Exactly cause he wasn’t hurt for 100 days and he doesn’t have any bonuses. However i would agree a contract of 100,00 years was not meant literally cause that would be a circumvention cause that contract could not be feasible.

by KingHellfire on Jul 23, 2010 6:30 PM PDT reply actions  

the denisons at ILWT...

don’t seem to like (or get) what you’re saying, my man.

“I don’t want to start a blood fued between ILWT and JFtC but Quisp really needs to stop e-stalking this site.” -slackdog_rm

Oh, how the truth hurteth.

by -J on Jul 23, 2010 6:34 PM PDT reply actions  

Seriously

I’m just going to ignore it on their site, but the commenters who state things like “Quisp needs to find a new hobby” by elesias and yet are as helplessly entangled in reading and debating these posts as Quisp or any of us really think they’re better? That’s pathetic. Better to be above it and ignore it, though it’s really hard because I’m so appreciative of all the hard work Quisp is doing to come to better conclusions than anyone else on the internet at this point. Sorry for this tangent, it really detracts from the focus of the original post, but it’s something I felt should be said.

by hughestom1 on Jul 23, 2010 6:53 PM PDT up reply actions  

I was just trying to be reasonable. Which was offensive, I guess.

I had no idea they were so attached to this Kovalchuk guy.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 23, 2010 7:19 PM PDT up reply actions  

Oh, they've been very sensitive.

From day one (well, day 18 or so) they boys over there have been handling very itchy trigger fingers. I got a taste early on, and the other day a Toronto fan, nhlcheapshot, got scolded for not posting a direct link to an audio piece by James Duthie.

"I don’t want to start a blood fued between ILWT and JFtC but Quisp really needs to stop e-stalking this site." -slackdog_rm

Awesome! If this happens, can we be the Sharks? They always had so much more style…ignore the mutant looking one.

by JZarris on Jul 23, 2010 9:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

e-stalking?

By which they mean, what? That he’s supposedly reading the site a lot?

That’s interesting: Bloggers who don’t want other people to read them.

by DougX on Jul 23, 2010 10:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

ILWT to JFTC:

“Stay away! I’m under the blanket until arbitration day!”

The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!

by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 23, 2010 10:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hilarious and prescient.

Especially since I have been banned from ILWT for commenting that it was “intellectually dishonest” to delete my previous comment responding to their personal attacks. Also cited in the banning was the violation of calling the personal attacks on me “unreasonable.” I should have said ****ing unreasonable. (that’s a joke: ****ing is the apparent “curse” word that was cited in the deleting of the first comment. Not the word, mind you. The actual asterisks followed by -ing.)

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 24, 2010 8:18 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don't even want Kovalchuk on the Kings anymore, but...

…the Devils fans wouldn’t know what hit them if the arbitrator sides with the NHL, a real possibility. Their heads would explode…and then when Bettman fines them $5 million for the willful cap circumvention, they will freak out. Most still think that Bettman can’t punish them because the Devils didn’t fight the rejectection.

That would be awesome to see…pure entertainment.

by Sydor25 on Jul 24, 2010 8:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

As a devils fan...

it really shows the annoyance of this CBA…..and the massive loopholes within it.
As for everything else, well it looks like the NHL and the PA gotta go back to the drawing board.

I’d like to think we’d make the play-offs with or without Kovy.

Everyone seems to be getting a little excited on both sides….

Ireland? An Ice Hockey Team?
You'd better believe it...

by JuniorIRL on Jul 24, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

The population of ILWT seems pretty committed to the idea of sides

but on the Kings’ side, I see nothing but extreme ambivalence. There is no consensus that Kovalchuk coming to the Kings is a net positive.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 24, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

I cannot see how there is “extreme ambivalence” when there are so few posts by you (Quisp) or any other contributor NOT about Kovalchuk.
The vast majority of Devils fans are annoyed with the rejection and the possibility that this can go against New Jersey, as you may imagine. To me, if there was ambivalence coming from Kings fans, you specifically, would not be reading another moderators story to bring it to your own site to rip it apart. I dont see the ambivalence

"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello

by Skuba7 on Jul 24, 2010 10:56 AM PDT up reply actions  

Either you are misreading the nature of the ambivalence or the word itself

While I don’t know that I’d agree with Quisp about whether or not it’s “extreme” I’d agree that there’s ambivalence within the Kings fan base (at least those who post) about whether or not they still want Kovalchuk. I don’t think Quisp is referring to interest or lack of interest in the subject; he’s talking about the nature of that interest.

by DougX on Jul 24, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, in my case at least, ambivalence about Kovalchuk coming here did not result in indifference about the topic itself. Quite the opposite. A heck of a lot of people are interested in this, and it seems as though fans of the two teams that would be bidding for him again if this falls through would naturally be the most concerned.

If Quisp can’t respond to the arguments raised by the ILWT post over here or over there, where is he supposed to respond? Or are the self-appointed fandom cops coming for us either way?

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Jul 24, 2010 11:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

ambivalence about Kovalchuk coming here did not result in indifference about the topic itself.

Exactly! This is a fun and interesting story, and definitely more so because of how big of a role the Kings had for the past month in the saga. ILWT seemed to start respectful, but once disagreement set in, they closed their eyes and said “LALALALALALA” really loud.

by hughestom1 on Jul 24, 2010 6:55 PM PDT up reply actions  

Possibly because you don't know what ambivalence means.

But let me address your points one-by-one (note: on ILWT, this results in deletion; here, not).

1) I don’t know what you mean by “contributor.” I am the only blogger. There are hundreds of contributors. There have been literally hundreds of posts not about Kovalchuk. Few, however, in this, Kovalchuk Month.

2) Ambivalence regarding the outcome of a situation conflicts not at all with “reading another moderators [sic] story.” In fact, “reading” in general is what allows the information to go into my brain and be processed, resulting directly, in this case, to the apparently non-existent ambivalence.

3) “…to bring it to my own site…” — it’s not my site. It’s SBN’s site. So is ILWT.

4) “…to rip it apart.” That’s your characterization of my post. I call it, addressing it point by point, with a focus on being thorough and factual. However:

5) Since the insinuation in your comment is that I “scurried back to the safety of ‘my’ blog in order to bash your moderator in an ‘unmanly’ fashion” (everything in quotes in this sentence is an accurate paraphrase of the personal attacks made against me in the comments section of ILWT; you know that, though) — anyway, since that’s the insinuation, let’s be clear:

I made all the same points in the comments section of ILWT and they were deleted by the moderator. I was respectful and thorough, which is apparently intolerable to him and/or you. Thus, your content-free attacks.

6. Ambivalence refers to having simultaneous, conflicting feelings or instincts on a topic. My ambivalence is readily apparent for all to see in the several Kovalchuk-related posts I have written and which you have obviously not read.

In the comment you (ILWT) deleted, I laid out in some detail the history of my ambivalence re Kovalchuk. Starting with the fact that he doesn’t play defense and has never scored a meaningful goal in the NHL, dwelling on the fact that 50 goal scorers peak at 26 and quickly peter out, ending up with essentially no output of value deserving of a mega-contract beyond the age of 35, and ending with the fact that beyond a certain price his salary will destroy the Kings’ salary structure. I also expressed somewhere in there concern that he was not a team player and his demands were not suggestive of someone who lives “in reality.” That’s pretty fucking ambivalent.

And those various attitudes are shared by a not-small number of Kings fans. Which you would also know if you leaped into straw-man-land.

7. “The vast majority of Devils fans are annoyed with the … possibility that this can go against New Jersey.” Interestingly, though, if you read the posts on ILWT, it’s clear you’ve proven that no such possibility exists. Thus, the gnashing of teeth that ensues when anyone points out otherwise.

8. In my opinion, the reason you are bothered by my ambivalence is that you need me to be an irrational homer in order to dismiss everything I say. That would, of course, be easier than reading what I say and showing some respect.

9. One example of respect would be to respond to conclusions based on facts with a counter-argument based on facts. This is what I did in responding to the posts on ILWT.

10. Obviously, this ideal — a forum for an exchange of ideas — is not possible on ILWT. Evidence of that would be the fact that I am banned there for disputing ILWT’s sacrosanct interpretations of the CBA, and subsequently objecting to the ridicule that earned me.

11. To set the record straight, I was banned because I said it was intellectually dishonest to delete my rebuttal comment. It’s even more intellectually dishonest to ban me for pointing out that ILWT is intellectually dishonest. Thus, proving my point.

12. Nevertheless, you are welcome to participate here. If someone attacks you, they will be warned and their comment may be deleted. This isn’t the Soviet Union. (hey!…oh, never mind.) You are allowed to participate. However, you will be taken more seriously if you bring facts to support your opinions. Otherwise, it’s just catty bullshit.

13. We like catty bullshit because it usually surfaces when the bullshitter has a losing argument.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 24, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

Well said Quisp

Obviously, the bloggers running ILWT are single-minded and are OVERLY protective of their team. Even when their team (proven or not) commits a crime against the league.

by The Ram on Jul 24, 2010 2:11 PM PDT up reply actions  

I must say John is very fair and most definitely not single minded. I don’t agree with “Quisp” being banned, but that is John’s and the moderators decisions. (Although, Quisp, you could have left it on there [but i guess that’s not important now])

Guilty until proven innocent, much???

We’ve debated this point about how “illegal” this contract is, back and forth (repeatedly).
I would recommend you (The Ram) look at the recent recommended post before you decide to bring out your brush and tar about the mods of ILWT.

Maybe we should just move on at this stage, this whole episode has caused enough mud-flinging.

Ireland? An Ice Hockey Team?
You'd better believe it...

by JuniorIRL on Jul 26, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions  

I don’t even know what will happen — things may go entirely their way, who knows? But it’s weird to me that they are so sensitive and go off on Quisp as much as they do. If he’s dead wrong, why do they care?

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Jul 24, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions  

I've never had anything against the Devils or their fans before

But yeah, the sheer hilarity of watching them react if/when the contract is rejected and their team gets smacked down over it will be worth staying glued to the Internet.

Especially since ILWT banned Quisp. There will be more than a little bit of Nelson Muntz added in: “Ha ha!”

by DougX on Jul 24, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

They seem to have a pretty hefty double standard when it comes to personal attacks. And strangely frustrated that they can’t control what other people do outside of their domain.

Oh well. They have chosen their way of coping with it. The sensible option would seem to be ignoring this site entirely if it offends them so much.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Jul 24, 2010 8:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

You were banned ?? Wow! They are being very sensitive over there, but wow! That is going too far with what they have been saying about you.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Jul 24, 2010 9:28 AM PDT up reply actions  

I really wonder if I haven't seen everything they've been saying

I only saw one comments section where they said I needed to get a new hobby, and also that I needed to “man up” and discuss it with them on their site, rather than “running back” to my own site where everyone agrees with me. There was some other stuff along those lines in that thread, “e-stalking” etc.. That’s what my deleted comment responded to, without any personal attacks whatsoever. That seems to infuriate them even more, however.

Possibly because they know unconsciously how wrong they are.

It’s pretty pathetic to insult someone behind his back and then delete his rebuttals to their pathetic attacks and then ban him because he points out how dishonest that is, AND THEN restate the original insult — which is that I am not “man” enough to face them and discuss it — safe in the knowledge that they have locked me out.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 24, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

They’re just mad they are going to have to change the name of their blog if you are right

by Nut on Jul 25, 2010 2:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

I never once said anything about what the arbiter's decision will be.

Other than to say it’s a coin-flip.

My only point (or my main point anyway), is that the league has a case. Not that the league will prevail, or that the NHLPA has no case, or the chips will absolutely fall this way or that way…just that the league has a case.

This drives them batshit crazy.

And who knows, maybe they wouldn’t have such reading comprehension problems if they weren’t driving themselves off a cliff in their denial-mobile.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 25, 2010 9:49 AM PDT up reply actions  

yeah I know, they’re freaking the hell out on anyone who says it is a possiblilty that the league has a case. There must be 40 replies over there that are just “show me the evidence!”. I feel bad for the Blues fan over there who is the lone voice of reason. He’s like Piggy in Lord of the Flies.

by Nut on Jul 25, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

There was also the comment, in the high euphoria period right before the press conference, wondering if this blog was written by a high-schooler. There’s civil for you.

I don’t think they want to listen to anybody right now. And they certainly don’t want to examine their own conduct.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Jul 25, 2010 9:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

Really? You mean THIS blog?

That’s nice.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, unless I’m missing something, we’re really only talking about maybe a half-dozen really vocal commenters, with special emphasis on about three of them.

I would have made the same points when I was in high school, since I knew how to read then too.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 25, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

The other thing to keep in mind is that, unless I’m missing something, we’re really only talking about maybe a half-dozen really vocal commenters, with special emphasis on about three of them.

True. It’s just a bit hypocritical.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Jul 25, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

Cap Circumvention

My question for defenders of the contract is, if extremely long contracts can’t be considered “cap circumvention” what would an example of cap circumvention be? What else is the CBA referring to when it forbids cap circumvention?

I can’t think of any other way to circumvent the salary cap. Maybe someone else can. Is there another way to circumvent the salary cap while technically following every other rule of the CBA? If not, that means the Kovy contract defenders are basically saying that salary cap circumvention is impossible (no contracts that are otherwise legal can be considered circumvention), and there is no reason for those clauses to be in the CBA.

But those clauses ARE in the CBA which suggests that cap circumvention IS possible even if you follow every other technical rule.

by Cari on Jul 23, 2010 7:19 PM PDT reply actions  

well, there are plenty of ways

like offering the player a free house, or a car that’s off the books, or a job for his wife, or a promotional/merchandising contract that specifically negotiated and tied to the team, or a promise of a job when he retires, that kind of thing. Or an off the books optional extension to his contract, or a contract for his friend who sucks… etc…

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 23, 2010 8:17 PM PDT up reply actions  

The phrase “such players.” This tells us exactly who this sentence applies to. Players who were injured for more than one hundred days the previous season.

Technically it refers to players that had been injured more than 100 days the previous season AND players over the age of 35 since the CBA refers to “As to paragraphs ©(2)(ii) and ©(2)(iii)” which deals with both groups.

Just being a little nitpicky(is that a word? I don’t think so) ;-)

Otherwise pretty much what I was thinking and commented on the post before just you are way more detailed and in depth than I could ever get without confusing myself thouroughly.

by GoKings09 on Jul 23, 2010 7:28 PM PDT reply actions  

well, no -- for example, Gaborik

last summer he was eligible for a performance bonus contract because he essentially missed the whole previous season, but he chose a multi-year contract.

Nitpicky is apparently not a word, but if we use it enough, it will become one.

It helps if you confuse yourself thoroughly on a regular basis. Then you practice climbing out of it.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 23, 2010 8:14 PM PDT up reply actions  

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say

Basically I was saying that “such players” refers to BOTH long term injured players AND players over 35 years of age because it refers to Paragraphs ii and iii.

So you’re example of Gaborik is perfect and I would add that it also covers players such as Modano who could sign a one year contract with bonuses or a multi-year regular contract this offseason.

by GoKings09 on Jul 23, 2010 11:45 PM PDT up reply actions  

That's the biggest key to Quisp's argument

It’s both the combination of the contract ending when Kovalchuk is 44 and the severe tapering of salary in the last few years that are the circumvention. Most of the arguments on the Devil’s site only address the fact that since the contract ends when he’s 44, this is why the league is invalidating it, and site the fact that the CBA doesn’t set provisions for length or term. As far as tapering salary, the defence is that there are numerous other contracts that do similar declines, the difference, of course, is the degree of decline. (i.e. speeding ticket reference).

by hughestom1 on Jul 23, 2010 7:35 PM PDT reply actions  

the severe tapering is a giant red flag,

but i would argue it is the fact that the contract takes him to the age of 44 that is the problem. In my opinion, if they did the same kind of tapering down to zero but it ended when he was 40 (which is I’m sure what the Kings contract was) they wouldn’t have had a problem, because it’s reasonable to expect he will play that long. He probably won’t, but it doesn’t rise to the level of 1:1000 odds against. And it is, and must be, a matter of degree.

Seriously, if it wasn’t about the money, and if he intended to play all the way to 44, why doesn’t he get paid $6MM every season, flat-rate, for 17 years? Maybe because IK would never take that deal, because he wants $10MM a year until he retires. And that’s what he got. And the Devils wanted a cap hit of around $6MM. And that’s what they got. Now, why didn’t they just do it to 13 years, 102MM/13 years? Because the cap hit would have been $7.9MM, which would cost them two roster players with big contracts instead of one. The fact that the price in players they would have to dump was that high was the main reason I believed he wouldn’t sign with the Devils if he was sticking to the $10MM/yr demand.

And that’s the other problem New Jersey has. If the contract has to be till he’s 40, they really won’t be able to afford it. Maybe they figure they can take it to 42, per Hossa? That would be 15 years and a cap hit of $6.8MM. Maybe they can do that. Or maybe Kovalchuk takes a little less and they do it that way. 15 years / $90MM / $6MM cap hit. That’s still better than the Kings offer. But will Kovalchuk take less? Would we be having this conversation if he would?

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 23, 2010 8:29 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's not about the money!

Of course Kovalchuk will take a lower offer from the Devils, he said it wasn’t about the money. He just happened to pick the highest offer.

;)

by Sydor25 on Jul 23, 2010 9:46 PM PDT up reply actions  

I agree

It’s always about the money until they actually take a contract worth less money. For example in the NBA, Matt Barnes just signed with the Lakers for about half of what he could have gotten with Cleveland. Then he can say its not about the money. Kovalchuk picking the highest paying offer and then saying its not about the money is fine, but it doesn’t really mean anything since he did take the most money.

by GoKings09 on Jul 23, 2010 11:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

I actually don’t have a problem with it going to 44. My big issue is how quickly it tails. Looking at the other front-loaded contracts I’ve seen cited as comparisons:

Hossa: Decline starts at age 37, contract ends at 41. Four years of $1m or less salary.
Pronger: Major decline starts at age 39, contract ends at 41. Two years of $1m or less salary.
Savard: Major decline starts at age 36, contract ends at 38. Two years of $1m or less salary.
Zetterberg: Major decline starts at age 37, contract ends at 39. Two years of $1m or less salary.
Franzen: Major decline starts at age 36, contract ends at 39. Two years of $1m or less salary.
Kovalchuk: Major decline starts at age 37, contract ends at 43. Six years of $1m or less salary.

The most similar contract is the Hossa deal, which declines at the same age and has the next-highest number of years at a low salary. Like you said, those two “extra” years on the Kovalchuk deal only slice about $800,000 off the annual cap hit. If it was $102m over 15 years, it would be almost perfectly in line with the Hossa deal (except signed at a younger age), and probably wouldn’t have caused the commissioner’s office to flip out. It was just too blatant of a manipulation of the cap hit, since it takes him to an older age than any of the other front-loads, and has more years at the low salary (and he’s a player whose play style doesn’t suggest he’ll be a veteran “presence player” that plays on a lower line as he declines). The start of the decline is in the right place, at age 37, and they could probably do it a year or two earlier, at 35 or 36, but it just goes too long.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Jul 26, 2010 6:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks Quisp

As always your analysis seems level headed, and you are always open to different opinions.

by Clever Kings Handle on Jul 24, 2010 12:46 AM PDT reply actions  

Kudos to Quisp
I say, if I get pulled over for going 90, I don’t get off because the cop didn’t pull over the guy going 70.
There is a line.

I just wanted to point out how great of an analogy I thought that was. I’ve spent my fair share of time with the CBA as well, but you’re doing quality work over here.

by DragonGirl0583 on Jul 24, 2010 6:17 PM PDT reply actions  

Wow

just reading through all these comments and finding that the ILWT site banned you is just amazing. Nothing you have written has been offensive in anyway and actually quite informative concerning the CBA. They just apparently cant handle the truth of the matter, but to delete you and then attack you is cowardly at best. History has shown that people who delete, burn, get rid, exterminate words or books showing truth is because they themselves are afraid of the truth.

Keep up the good work over here Quisp, and we can only wait and see what happens with the case.

Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde

I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.

by TricksterG on Jul 26, 2010 7:46 AM PDT reply actions  

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