ILWT Comments Section, West
by Quisp on Jul 27, 2010 3:24 PM PDT
in Kovalchuk
616 comments
I am banned from commenting at "In Lou We Trust" so I am keeping a log -- a blog if you will -- of my responses here. It's as though I am actually part of the conversation, except they can't delete my comments.
We pick up the story as a reasonable and wise law student named Joker24 engages the locals on the topic of length of contract:
The intent of the contract is to give themselves an overwhelmingly likely chance that Kovalchuk doesn’t play (at least) the final year of the deal, which means that the calculated AAV for the duration of the contract is lower than it actually would have been.
If he plays only 16 years, then the actual AAV would have been 6.345M and not the stated 6M. The Devils would have had more cap room than they should have for 16 straight years.
Prove that was the intent.
They know that it is extremely unlikely that he plays his age 43 season. Therefore they know that there is an overwhelming chance that they will have gotten extra cap space. Even if that isn’t the sole intent*, that is a definite positive to the contract from their perspective.
*which I still haven’t seen any of you guys argue with any conviction that this is not the case….[...]
[...] a 43 year old whom you have no idea whether he can still play, because it's 17 years from now [...]
Neither does one know if their house will still be standing when they sign a 30 year mortgage on it, but that doesn’t stop millions of people from doing it.
You should! You totally should! You should make t-shirts and sell them on your site. However:
- if one house in a thousand lasted thirty years, there wouldn't be thirty year mortgages. Frame that, too.
- Also, did you know that old people have trouble getting 30-year mortgages because actuaries know that statistically there's very little chance they will be alive to pay it off. I wonder if the applicants have tried your fool-proof "but you don't know! Prove I won't be here when I'm 110!! I intend to be!" strategy.
- Notice also that, with the old person in the mortgage analogy in your frame you love so much, the bank might be willing to do a shorter loan, say 15 years, presuming they believe the old person will be alive that long. The old person says, okay sure, and then sees the payment. Shockingly, it's much higher and the tax benefits are much lower.
- The old guy can only afford the mortgage when the payment is low and he's dead for most of the loan.
- The Devils can only afford the contract when the cap-hit is low and Kovalchuk is retired for the last third of the deal.
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Homers.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 3:32 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
This is why we love you!
I gotta tell my Grandma to stop looking for a home to buy….
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
by card_base on Jul 27, 2010 3:37 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Darn those facts and reasoning
They are always getting in the way of totally biased gibberish Quisp!
The thing I don’t get though is they all want to whine and complain about you not “manning” up and explaining your reasoning over there(which you can’t since you were banned), BUT none of them have posted here to try to disprove the points that you have made.
I’ve noticed this too…
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 3:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Thats because they are trying to circumvent reality….they say they intend to visit our site, but never actually will…
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
by card_base on Jul 27, 2010 3:47 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I want to frame this comment. ZING!
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions
I like how they call everyone around the league biased when that person doesn’t agree with ILWT, but they can’t see that being a fan of the Devils means you are biased.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Very true. I mean, they would be crying foul if the Kings signed that deal, wouldn’t they? And I would probably be here defending it :)
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I tried saying something like that … that I could understand their position, any of us would be reacting the same if it was our team. I was accused of being snarky.
Oh wait, I think I did add that they are only seeing the facts as they want to see them. But it was still in line with the “reacting the same if it was our team”. But don’t think it was taken in the manner I meant it. :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
I understand. i think this is a situation where some fans needs to take a step back and look at it from the outside. Because that contract stinks to high-heaven. Lou said it himself.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:10 PM PDT up reply actions
We wouldnt be as big of bitter cry babies that you guys have been.
by st.pattysdaymassacre26 on Jul 28, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions
You are HUGE crybabies!
Just go read your whinging and complaining about the rejection. Get real.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:07 AM PDT up reply actions
Your use of the phrase “bitter cry babies” pretty much says all we need to know.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 8:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I love it -- banned from In Lou We Trust!
I want the T-shirt. But first, what did the mighty JF (alltime champion hypocrite) say in the email where he banned you. Post it! Post it!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
I ask for the email because I wonder how JF frames a case where being right is grounds for banishment under the terms of agreement to which you agreed when you joined ILWT.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:11 PM PDT up reply actions
I’d like to see proof that Quisp intended to circumvent the terms of agreement :)
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Well-played, sir. +1
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
if you haven’t seen it already, scroll down the comments on this post – you’ll see where Quisp goes into the explanations of why he was banned. Least what he was told.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Thanks!
Should I find it interesting that it is a newcomer to ILWT and not John the Founder?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Thanks!
Where is JF though?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I just read this and it's unbelievable
There is no sane part of the discourse on the subject over at ILWT. It’s all bitching, whining and conspiracy theories. I want to post over there but I can’t get myself to read through the moronic replies I’m bound to receive.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 27, 2010 4:48 PM PDT up reply actions
It's really not worth it. I only visited because I heard they were saying mean things
So I thought I would, you know, kill them with kindness. That worked for about ten minutes.
Wait till this year.
If I remember right Quisp said it was because he used #### to represent a curse word or something like that
Correct. Actually like so; ****ing, etc.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:20 PM PDT up reply actions
It was either the word **** or the word ****ing, I forget, because I don't have access to the comment now.
But it wasn’t in reference to anybody. Something like, “I don’t give a **** whether Kovalchuk plays in LA or NJ or the KHL.” Again, from memory. Also, I think I said something was “b.s.” I thought those were the rules re how not to curse. Llike Fred Flintstone “rassum-frassum” etc.
Wait till this year.
You’re so profane, I am offended. Does my sarcasm come through?
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 28, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I don't know him and never interacted with him in my life before a couple of days ago.
Is he mighty? I had no idea.
Wait till this year.
Not to me, he isn’t. I sent him an email remarking that a poster from another SB blog was being treated badly but was unfailingly polite and made good points that the ILWT “regulars” (including this Eliases) ignored, contrary to his own blog’s entry requirements; and suggesting his action was very mild towards the offenders and he replied basically that it was his blog to run as he saw fit and what he did in it was none of my business. (I paraphrase of course.)
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 8:49 PM PDT up reply actions
A pretty nurse is selling poppies from a tray.
Well, my interpretation is, it’s the cult of a not-very-bright personality.
Wait till this year.
Very strange.
No argument from me on that.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 9:10 PM PDT up reply actions
There Devils fans, what do you expect?
Signed,
Your resident Kings supporting Flyers fan.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 28, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
they’re…. Apparently I’m not overly bright either
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 28, 2010 3:48 PM PDT up reply actions
cant you just create a false identity to infiltrate their system….
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Of course, but that would be as hypocritical as banning him was.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:06 PM PDT up reply actions
Why would I want to do that?
I don’t have any interest in tricking them. I just think I have a right to answer their dopey accusations without having my response deleted. So, this is the best I could come up with.
Wait till this year.
For real. Some people can’t stand seeing the facts. Probably why there aren’t a ton of NJ fans commenting on Quisps blogs, some of them can’t stand to read the truth.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions
By the complete lack of comments it looks like none of them can stand to read the truth.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:13 PM PDT up reply actions
Just trying not to make a generalization. The word “some” is safer I suppose.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Meh, go ahead and use "none". There are no posts. None.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 4:15 PM PDT up reply actions
Let's be fair
I think Kevin & Tom from ILWT have visited here to try and share their opinions. JF is nowhere to be seen, though.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 27, 2010 4:29 PM PDT up reply actions
Well....
i work in the mortgage industry and it is illegal for Lenders to consider someones age for a loan (except must be >= 18). And i have never heard anyone say anything to the affect of “we should offer them a shorter term because they’re kinda old”. I’ve never worked for any shady places, so who knows.
I’m curious to know where this came from “Also, did you know that old people have trouble getting 30-year mortgages because actuaries know…”
I understand what Quisp is referring to, whether it's a myth or not
When I applied for my mortgage (about 15 years ago), my dad co-signed with me, but he warned me that adding his name might not do that much good because he was in his mid-60’s at the time. Dad spent almost 40 years in the saving & loan industry, so he wasn’t completely ignorant of how residential real estate lending worked.
Against policy, perhaps, but truly illegal? There is ageism in all sorts of financial areas (insurance being a big one); I don’t see why that wouldn’t be potentially applied to loans as well.
by SmellOfVictory on Jul 27, 2010 5:52 PM PDT up reply actions
Oh I think it's one of my dad's things. I don't know.
Maybe personal loan/line-of-credit would have been a better analogy.
Wait till this year.
This is the second reference to actuaries and actuarial science I see on this site in the last few weeks. Heck, I’m an actuary and I come here to stop thinking about odds, survival functions and ultimate values for a while. Don’t make me take out my calculator!
Please bring it out
we could use actuarial knowledge on this blog!
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 27, 2010 4:45 PM PDT up reply actions
102/17 = Ridiculous.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 27, 2010 4:52 PM PDT up reply actions
You may be called into service. I believe that's part of the JftC user agreement.
It’s like registering for the draft.
Wait till this year.
You're only a few exams away from actuarial credentials...
Quisp, I’ve seen the way you crunch numbers in some of your threads, and I gotta say I’ve been impressed! If called to serve, I can tech check your spreadsheets any time!
by Passemoilapuck on Jul 28, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, meant that as a reply to 88!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 5:13 PM PDT up reply actions
what am i missing
does quisp = elesias?
Profiles for each show:
quisp = fan of Kings
elesias = fan of Devils.
now looks like the user page for elesias was deleted. oh well
Bias, for sure
There was a link to a poll on ILWT on Yahoo! Sports, so I checked it out. 84% think the arbitrator will uphold Kovy’s contract. Yeah… okay.
Truth be told, tho, I am sure if the shoe was on the other foot, Kings fans would be voting the same way.
Some would. I’m just glad he’s “signing” with the Devils. He’s a terrific natural goal-scorer but not, I think, a fit for the Kings.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:19 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree. I think they could have worked him into the system/worked the system around him, but I am not one of the people who wanted to jump off a bridge when the Kings “lost” him.
I wanted to jump off a bridge when they were pursuing him! I think it’s a mistake for the Devils to sign him too. but that’s another story.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:18 PM PDT up reply actions
I saw that too.
I voted for the rejection being upheld.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 27, 2010 5:32 PM PDT up reply actions
To Whom It May Concern
I thought my interpretation of the spamming post was pretty darn funny. And I didn’t use a swear you’ll notice.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
SBNation seems to be pretty good about sweeping out comment spam
Replies to comment spam get swept out along with it, though.
yeah I always flag spam and just hope they go away
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Sigh. You get off a really good one and…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 8:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Cry me a river.
Find me a hockey fan that isn’t biased give a break….waaaahh I can’t post on a devils blog wahhhhh….If anyone on here who is a Kings fan says they wouldn’t defend the contract if it was the Kings trying to sign him is a liar. Everyone on here was so excited when it was “certain” he was coming here. Now your alllll bitter. Would I be? Of course I would. Would I argue against it if the NYR had this deal of course. But before you whine sit and think about it. Does it intend to go around the cap, of course. You’d be blind not to think so. Ok now show me proof he won’t be playing at 44……..ok waiting….nothing? hmmmm shocker. Ok Hossa got 94% of his money during the first 66% of his contract. Did you complain then? doubful because Hossa never was 99% to sign here. If Kovy had never shown interest in LA none of you would be flipping out. Does the CBA suck yes. Do the devils exploit it beyond anything in the NHL yes. Is there anything in the CBA that shows that this cheats the CBA, nope sorry. I’ve been reading through the CBA since it was rejected. The NHL lost its stance once Kirpusoff had his last year at 1 Mil, no matter the extent, it circumvented the Cap. He won’t play that last year, neither will Loungo, Hossa, Zetterberg, Franzen, Pronger, and yes Dipietro. The CBA was an utter failer and now you want to blame the Devils because they stole your best option. Reverse the situation and we both probably reverse our stance. Find me a CBA article that 100% shows the Devils cheated. The NHL screwed up, not the Devils.
2 things I would like to address
1. Dipietro doesn’t fit with the rest of the players listed because his salary pays the same every year of the contract so his cap hit is completely reasonable and not intended to circumvent the cap.
2. I for one honestly believe that Quisp would still be breaking down the CBA in a pretty similar way if the Kings had signed him to a 17 year contract instead. Would the tone be a little different? Of course, because he is a Kings fan, but when it comes to the CBA he tends to be pretty unbiased and looks at facts and what will likely happen, not what he wishes to happen or whatever. He has been pretty ambivalent about Kovalchuk and isn’t just rooting for the contract to be rejected so the Kings can get him.
Ok I challenge you to give me facts that is circumvents the cap more then past allowed contracts…I’ll easily defeat any argument you have. You don’t think a 15 year deal doesn’t circumvent? You think he will play all 15 years? Lets say Kovy signed a 17 year deal for 6 mil a year. Oh Kovy isn’t good at 35, ok off to the minors, oh he doesn’t like it, he retires, ok no salary no cap hit. Of course it goes around the cap. If they basically make him retire after he starts playing bad, they don’t have to worry about cap, that is why its circumventing.
Please tell me how the past contracts don’t circumvent? I would LOVE to hear how Hossa’s doesn’t. I really would because I would laugh. You expect Luongo to be playing for 1.25 when he is old? please
by LostNearHell on Jul 27, 2010 9:18 PM PDT up reply actions
If you read carefully I didn’t try to say that none of the contracts before were trying to circumvent the cap, just that Dipietro’s was different. His contract pays him the exact same amount each year so there is no tail off intended to artificially lower the cap hit. It is basically a lifetime contract for as long as Rick wants to play, but he makes the same every year so its not the same as Hossa, Luongo, Kovalchuk, etc. Another contract that is sometimes mentioned as being the same as these others is Ovechkin even though his pays him $9 million for 6 years and $10 million for 7 years meaning it is another case of just having a long contract but not intending to get around the cap at all since his cap hit is 9.5 million.
The big issue I have is the NHL had to draw the line somewhere before we end up with a 30 year contract that lowers the cap hit on some superstar down to 3 million or whatever. There has to be a line somewhere and the NHL warned teams after Hossa and Pronger’s deals last year(which has been reported happened) so the Devils did this at their own risk. It’s been reported by Dreger and others that Lombardi and the KIngs offer was structured to not push the limits on the last few years any further than Hossa, etc. had done before
I understand why Devils fans would be upset about all those other contracts getting by, but you can’t base your argument on the fact that other teams got away with it.
It’s like getting pulled over doing 80 and justifying it by saying that the guy you passed was doing 75. The Devils knew the league wouldn’t be happy with the contract and yet they still pushed the envelope even further.
Everyone knows that the NHL brass have their heads up their arses, but the Devils brought this on themselves.
This
It’s like getting pulled over doing 80 and justifying it by saying that the guy you passed was doing 75.
(Or telling your Mom, “But the Johnson kids did it!” )
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 6:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Two things from my POV
Not that you seem to be in much of a listening mood, but anyway….
To a large degree, I agree that the Kovalchuk contract is no different in kind from the other front-loaded contracts that have already been awarded. But I disapprove of all of them, and don’t think that any of them should have been allowed. I don’t have any comments on record on this blog disapproving of the Hossa contract because it didn’t exist last summer, but I may have posted to that effect on Rich Hammond’s blog. Obviously, all of these heavily front-loaded contracts are attempts to game the system and circumvent the salary cap.
And I’m pleased that the league disallowed Kovalchuk’s contract is that I’m glad to see the league finally drawing the line on this kind of nonsense. As an NHL fan, I would be entirely pleased to see the league go on to retroactively roll back all such contracts in which there is such discrepancy between the cap hit and the actual salary paid in some years. As a practical matter, it’s probably too late to do something that drastic, but I wouldn’t mind seeing it happen. IIRC, the league is still investigating some of these contracts, so disciplinary action against the teams that gave them out is still possible; I’d like to see the hammer come down.
Being a Kings fan actually has less to do with my position than you clearly assume. You can search this blog if you like (it would take you a lot of time, because I comment here a lot), and if you did you would see that my position on Kovalchuk is that he would have been a great addition to the team, but only at the right price. In other words, my position was basically the same as Quisp’s. I didn’t want him at any price, only at the right price.
I do think that NJ way overpaid for him. I was also shocked that Lombardi offered 13/15 years (depending on which source you use) and $80 mil; I kind of thought that was too much for the Kings’ own good. And if you wish for documentation about my position on the matter, I did get into an argument with another commenter here in a thread that played out just before the league handed down its rejection of NJ’s accepted offer. As part of that argument, I stated frankly that I would be uncomfortable with the Kings assuming a $5+ mil/year cap hit for Kovalchuk when he was 35 and into the downside of his career.
So if you assume that I would be blindly defending a similar contract for Kovalchuk had the Kings signed him, you are not correct. First, because I don’t approve of those kinds of front-loaded, gaming-the-system contracts in general. And second, because I never wanted the Kings to overpay for Kovalchuk and would have felt very uncomfortable with the long-term consequences for the team. Seriously, Devils fans should be glad if the NHL washes their hands of this 17-year, $102 million abomination. It’s a bad idea for the Devils and for the league.
by DougX on Jul 27, 2010 11:53 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
Very well stated. Rec'd
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:00 AM PDT up reply actions
“I challenge you to give me facts that is [sic] circumvents the cap more then past allowed contracts…I’ll easily defeat any argument you have.”
It doesn’t have to circumvent the CBA more than anything. The CBA doesn’t say, “only the most illegal contract gets rejected.” I actually love that.
p.s. any contract can be investigated at any time, regardless of whether it has been approved. Investigations into the Hossa contracts and others are still on-going, I believe. And the league has said that it reserves the right to discipline the contracts you mention.
“You can’t convict me of murder because even though I admit I did murder these five other people who also murdered totally got away with it although there’s no statute of limitations and they’re still investigating so maybe wait did I just say I murdered delete delete where’s the delete button why isn’t there one BETTMAN!!!!!!”
Wait till this year.
by Quisp on Jul 28, 2010 5:16 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
"You can’t convict me of murder because even though I admit I did murder these five other people who also murdered totally got away with it although there’s no statute of limitations and they’re still investigating so maybe wait did I just say I murdered delete delete where’s the delete button why isn’t there one BETTMAN!!!!!!"
Great morning laugh, thankyou sir.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:02 AM PDT up reply actions
This got me wondering a little while ago. Say Hossa retires at 40. Can’t the NHL then go “Aha! Cap circumvention investigation complete!” and fine the hawks 3 million dollars for two years?
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
If it was for a non-medical reason, in theory I believe the CBA would allow that, although it would depend on the Arbitrator, who might take a dim view of a post facto determination. The League can claim circumvention, but Article 26 seems to require that claim to be supported by the Arbitrator if the NHLPA doesn’t agree.
If, by contrast, he had gotten a concussion at 39 and chose to retire, I don’t see any way that could be considered circumvention.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Lets say Kovy signed a 17 year deal for 6 mil a year.
Kovie wouldn’t do that. He wouldn’t sign a deal where the most he would make in any season is $6mil.
But IF he did, then it wouldn’t be circumventing the Salary Cap because every year he is scheduled to earn $6mil, and therefore there is no artificial lowering of the Salary Cap. In fact, if Kovie signed this deal, two things would have happened: 1) people everywhere would have ridiculed him for taking a contract where he would never be able to earn even 70% of the money and 2) the NHL would have approved the contract in a second.
You expect Luongo to be playing for 1.25 when he is old? please
While I believe the Luongo contract also circumvents the cap, there have been a litany of goalies well past their prime who made peanuts at the end of their careers: Belfour (3rd in career Wins) made $750,000 in his last year, Joseph (4th) made $700,000 in one of his final years, and Chris Osgood (10th) is making $1.5 mil are just a few of the more recent examples.
Now you might want to bring that back to Kovalchuk and say that he could be worth league minimum at age 40, but let’s take a look at some former goal scorers still around today and what they make (or most recently made):
Selanne made $2mil last season at age 40.
Modano made $2.25mil last season at age 40.
Recchi is making $1-1.95mil this season at age 42.
Oh, and those three guys are all in the top 35 for career points, as well as the top 25 for career regular season goals.
So basically there is no way that Kovalchuk would either play out the entire contract, or be worth less that even $1mil at the end of the contract. Salary Cap = artificially lowered.
Follow me on twitter @CoolJ90 or add me to XBox Live - CoolJ90
by CoolJ90 on Jul 28, 2010 8:35 AM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yes it is.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 10:33 AM PDT up reply actions
….If anyone on here who is a Kings fan says they wouldn’t defend the contract if it was the Kings trying to sign him is a liar.
I am a Kings fan. I posted here more than once that I did not want Kovalchuk on the Kings. Fortunately the Kings did not sign him, but if they had I would have attacked the contract, not defended it.
I am not a liar, sir, nor am I bitter that he is not a King.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 27, 2010 9:22 PM PDT up reply actions
LAST 5 YEARS!!!!
IMO The problem with this deal which is not the case with the other deals you mentioned is that the last 5 years he gets what is currently (nearly) the league minimum. The league minimum 2026-2027 will undoubtedly be much higher than 550k. So it is blatantly obvious that those years and numbers (because they are BS salary numbers) were tacked on to lower the cap hit. Attempting to circumvent the cap is circumvention. Other deals you mention DO NOT have this kind of tail. Do they have the effect of lowering the cap hit?, yes but this is ridiculous. Its not just the term. Hossa’s deal at least makes the attempt to pay out the final years in an amount which should be at or slightly above the league minimum, judging by past trajectory. The NHLPA may argue that there is precedent for these kind of deals. No there are no deals where a guy gets what will be below the league minimum for the last 5 years of his deal. They should be against the deal for that reason.
For the record this kings fan is not “bitter” that we didnt get Kovy. Bummed, yeah he would have been a great piece and I was really excited about him playing with Kopi. Even our deal which most likely would have been accepted because it did not tail off like this was too much money and for too long for this kind of player. I would rather the kings build a deeper team with that kind of cash rather than spend it on one guy who is not crosby or ovi and isnt going to bring the kind of attention to the team on a national scale that those guys would. Seems to me this a case of Vanderbeek having to have Kovy and in an act of last minute desperation gave in and forked over the ridiculous 100 mil. In his mind Kovy gives NJ the kind of notoriety that a player like crosby or ovi gives to its franchise:
nationally televised games on NBC, Winter Classic, etc. and so he could justify the salary. This is not going to be the case with Kovy, his name is only known to diehard hockey fans. Its a shame that Vanderbeek doesnt realize he already has a player of this calibre who is well known to American TV audiences, he scored the tying goal in the olympic final for team USA.
I don't have to prove that he won't be playing at 44. Because I can prove the odds are 1:1000 that he will be playing at 44.
“The CBA was an utter failer.”
:)
“The NHL screwed up, not the Devils.”
I like that argument. However, because the intent of the CBA explicitly is protected by the CBA, since the CBA says so, it’s self-correcting in that regard. So the argument that the CBA made a mistake and the Devils are therefore entitled to exploit it, is actually just another way of saying that the Devils intended to circumvent the CBA. Which is a circumvention.
“……..ok waiting….nothing? hmmmm shocker. "
What’s funny is you’re waiting for a response from me before you’ve hit “post.”
Wait till this year.
Does the CBA suck yes. Do the devils exploit it beyond anything in the NHL yes. Is there anything in the CBA that shows that this cheats the CBA, nope sorry.
The CBA’s very broad in what a circumvention is. Anything that “is intended to or has the effect of” circumventing “the provisions of this Agreement or the intention of the parties as reflected by the provisions of this Agreement” (emphasis added) is a circumvention. By your own admission, this is intended to circumvent the intention of the parties, and therefore is a circumvention. Q.E.D.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
The CBA’s very broad in what a circumvention is.
Sort of like other related duties in a job description…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:04 AM PDT up reply actions
One of my employers was even more vague – other duties as requested. Related duties? Why limit yourself?
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Related duties? Why limit yourself?
I suspect that the employer defines “related”, in much the same way as he/she/it “requests” other duties — they are both limited only by what the employer decides. Reminds me of The Golden Rule: He Who has The Gold Makes The Rule.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 10:30 AM PDT up reply actions
Sorry, I forgot my [/sarcasm] tag on that one…yeah, it’s pretty darn easy to define related. I always find those amusing, since they’re basically saying “hey, we can tell you to do any job we want.” The only thing that ever differs is how polite they are about it.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
No problem. I did in fact get the sarcasm but I’m just that perverse that I’ve been known to answer sarcasm with serious “thought”. As for how polite they are, that facade disappears with the first utterance of the word, “But…” in my experience!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:13 AM PDT up reply actions
are you a lawyer???
I’m going to take a wild guess and say no. You, and many others, cling hardfast to this erroneous belief that the devils must have violated some explicit statement in the CBA for the NHL to prove it’s case. You ask for proof that the Devils cheated- where’s yours showing that this needs to be proved? There is the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law, and if you don’t think the second matters, well then I guess we should just get rid of the Supreme Court. It appears Lou’s gaming the system (look it up since you probably don’t what this is) and i think an arbitrator is going to see that what he, and others before him, are doing is against the intent of the CBA.
BTW- the CBA does establish what it’s intent is with the cap so what the arbitrator has to decide IMO is whether the contract circumvents this intent, not whether it violates an explicit statement in the CBA. Now show me a convincing argument that structuring his contract with multiple years at the max and min salaries does not circumvent the purpose of the salary cap. You can’t have a more extremely disparate salary structure, and not one of the other contracts that are commonly referenced come close.
by -J on Jul 28, 2010 5:54 AM PDT up reply actions
This is more to the point of one of Quisps earlier blogs. Everyone thinks the league has to prove the Devils intent to circumvent the cap. However it also states that a contract that has the affect of circumventing the cap is also in violation of the CBA. So if the Devils signed Kovy to the contract, fully intending him to play all 17 years, yet the contract has the affect of circumventing the cap, it should be rejected.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 28, 2010 11:07 AM PDT up reply actions
I happened to read your responses before they were deleted, Quisp, so it’s disingenuous for you to keep claiming they were harmless when they were clearly meant to be inflammatory.
But it should be expected, after all, you continue your disingenuous behavior here where your sycophants unthinkingly praise your keen wit and you might fear no reprisal as any differing opinion is jumped on and shredded by the locals… wait, that sounds familiar. I swear I’ve heard that exact same accusation about another site somewhere recently…
Strange. I mean… that would be hypocrisy, wouldn’t it?
To your points:
if one house in a thousand lasted thirty years, there wouldn’t be thirty year mortgages.
The point of the analogy, which I never claimed to be a perfect one, was that people commit large quantities of resources to uncertain futures with the expectation that things will work out all the time.
Frame that, too.
Unnecessarily snarky and condescending. As were, I might add, your comments at ILWT.
Also, did you know that old people have trouble getting 30-year mortgages because actuaries know that statistically there’s very little chance they will be alive to pay it off. I wonder if the applicants have tried your fool-proof “but you don’t know! Prove I won’t be here when I’m 110!! I intend to be!” strategy.
Are you really comparing how old a well-conditioned athlete might reach while still being able to play professional hockey at a minimum level to a human’s life-expectancy? Or implying that the process by which a bank decides to loan their money is somehow comparable to how a team designs player contracts beyond the superficial “here’s some money”?
Notice also that, with the old person in the mortgage analogy in your frame you love so much, the bank might be willing to do a shorter loan, say 15 years, presuming they believe the old person will be alive that long. The old person says, okay sure, and then sees the payment. Shockingly, it’s much higher and the tax benefits are much lower.
Now you’re just stretching an imperfect analogy meant to make but a single point to an absurd extreme, and on top of that suggesting that “I love the mortgage analogy so much” as if it were anything more than a throwaway comment. That is called a straw man.
The old guy can only afford the mortgage when the payment is low and he’s dead for most of the loan.
Yawn.
The Devils can only afford the contract when the cap-hit is low and Kovalchuk is retired for the last third of the deal.
How so? The Devils can work around a larger cap-hit if they had to. And, if they can afford to pay him $11.5m for five years, I doubt the Devils will struggle to afford his salary for the last third of the deal.
Congratulations, though. I used to visit your site as a quasi-Kings fan. I was rooting for your team in the playoffs last season and would stop by to lurk a bit and get your take on how things were going. I even started coming by when this whole Kovalchuk thing started up, but your obsession became off-putting and I found myself coming by less and less. Then, once you let your anti-Kovalchuk bias spread to ILWT I saw no need to continue to come here for the lure of proverbially sticking my hand into a bee’s nest would probably prove too great, and here you’ve gone out of your way to specifically mock me, causing me to stick my hand in anyway.
Is it because I said you were petty? Needed a new hobby? Did I hurt your widdle feelings?
You, sir, are consumed by your own obsession and it has clouded your judgment. You are surrounded by that which you claim to despise, and cannot even see it for yourself. Do us all a favor and do like the rest of the SBN world and keep your business about your business.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
and what about your business?
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.warmphotos.net/img/cool/nose/nose01.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.warmphotos.net/nose-picking-rhinotillexomania&usg=muWa6Q3KZLsY-AcG20-ReUXgw04=&h=691&w=460&sz=26&hl=en&start=134&tbnid=KiBhRWBR48jJM:&tbnh=139&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dnose%2Bpicking%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1413%26bih%3D721%26tbs%3Disch:1%26prmd%3Div&itbs=1&ei=2rRPTOSDJJS6sQPxk5zuBw
i'll show you my butt tattoo if you'll show me yours
um, here...
http://timeforasmile.com/files/rib-tickling-smile-nose-picker.jpg
i'll show you my butt tattoo if you'll show me yours
The Devils can only afford the contract when the cap-hit is low and Kovalchuk is retired for the last third of the deal.
How so? The Devils can work around a larger cap-hit if they had to. And, if they can afford to pay him $11.5m for five years, I doubt the Devils will struggle to afford his salary for the last third of the deal.
As it stands, the Devils are already over the cap and would have to move someone important to get back under with Kovy. If the cap hit was any higher it would only be worse.
By afford the contract Quisp means get it under the cap, not in the idea of paying out salary. Yes, the Devils can afford to pay Kovy through the whole deal, but expecting them to pay Kovy 750K while keeping his 6.5 Mill cap hit on the books is insane. Quite simply the Devils expect him to retire during the last 3rd of his deal after he’s already collected 97% of the Salary from the deal. The late term salary is just unrealistic. Almost every 40 year old in the league is making 1 million or more, even 47 year old Chelios made 700K last season when he signed with the Thrashers.
Quite simply, the Devils are not expecting to take a 6.5 million cap hit for a 40 year old Kovy while paying him 550K. There’s a wink wink nudge nudge agreement that he will retire.
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
by WebBard on Jul 27, 2010 10:10 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Even Better
If the Devils could afford a higher salary cap hit they wouldn’t have needed to give him a 17 year deal in order to lower his cap hit to what it currently is.
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
If the cap hit was any higher it would only be worse.
How so? We’ve covered that topic pretty extensively at ILWT. It’s widely assumed Lou will try to move Salvador ($2.9m) and Zubrus’ ($3.4m) salaries off the books, putting them $4.5m under the cap with some spaces to fill with prospects. If the cap hit were a million or so more, it doesn’t change much.
Easy? No. But to say that they “can only afford the contract when the cap-hit is low” is misleading. Isn’t this whole hullabaloo about how it is low (?) and they’re already over, so of course something has to change. A higher cap hit just means more might have to change.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
If the Devils could have gotten him under the cap with less years then they would have.
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
At this point, after Lou’s comments on the contract and on ownership input, and given his direct involvement in the CBA in the first place, as well as the Devils’ capologist’s (sorry I can’t recall his name) work for the league on the CBA; I don’t know if I’m sure of this or not. I do know that not long ago I would have felt pretty confident that if Lou authored a player contract, signed it and sent it to the league for approval it would get that approval.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Devils’ capologist’s (sorry I can’t recall his name)
Steve Pelligrini
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Thanks
Now did you look that up or did you have it at your mental fingertip? I envy you if you had it “on tip” so to speak.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:31 PM PDT up reply actions
I remembered it was Steve P-something, but couldn’t remember his last name.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I’d take that. Well-played on the swearing rebuttal, BTW.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I have zero input into what he does. If you want to be reinstated, plead your case with him.
Or cry about it here. Whichever.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I don't want to be reinstated. I couldn't care less.
The response to your accusation that I am being disingenuous is, either we have to take your word for it (which sounds like a great idea), or we would have to look at the comments. I stand 100% behind what I wrote.
Anyway, that’s not the sound of crying you hear.
Wait till this year.
I think it telling that my post was met with nothing but an attempt to bait me into a petty argument about why you can no longer post at ILWT.
I read your posts and I was in the process of replying to one of them when they were deleted. I had nothing to do with their deletion, am not privy to why they were, nor do I care. What I do care about is your attempt to spin it as if you are an innocent in the matter. If you want to disagree with it, fine. If you want to pout about it, fine. If you want to think you were mistreated, fine. But don’t sully the name of an entire site and population of posters just because you feel slighted.
I don’t much care whether your sycophants take my word for it. I never expected them to. You know the truth and the few others who were unfortunate enough to read your posts know the truth, and that’s all that matters. My post here was purely in response to your calling me out, I’m guessing because I bruised your ego with my “attacks”.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I'm not calling you out.
Any more than I’m calling out Ken Campbell or ESPN or TSN or the LA Times when I post something someone else has written on a topic and respond with my own point of view.
“I think it telling that my post was met with an attempt to bait me into a petty argument about why you can no longer post at ILWT.”
Weird that you think that’s off-topic when your post begins:
I happened to read your responses before they were deleted, Quisp, so it’s disingenuous for you to keep claiming they were harmless when they were clearly meant to be inflammatory.
Wait till this year.
I’m guessing because I bruised your ego with my "attacks".
Your “attack” was that I am hiding here with my sycophants. My response is that I’m not hiding. This is where I “live.” I tried to visit you, and was banned.
The reason I visited was to respond to the charge that I don’t respond. Since the response was deleted, I pointed out the “irony” of that. When that was deleted and I was prevented from commenting further, I responded here.
You know the truth and the few others who were unfortunate enough to read your posts know the truth, and that’s all that matters.
I said you were “unreasonable.” What’s the counter-argument?
Wait till this year.
Is that
really your response?
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
straw man slippery slope red herring
Pension Plan Puppets*
* Blog contains less than 2% puppet content by weight.
Or else have him state for the record that my description of what he deleted is false.
I still have his email, explaining the “charges.” It doesn’t say anything about being inflammatory. It says I swore using asterisks to bleep out the swearing, I called the commenters who attacked me “unreasonable” and I attacked him personally by saying deleting my comment was “intellectually dishonest.” Oh, and I referred to his discipline in the comments, that’s against the rules too.
I’m sure I can have SBN tech dig up the comments, if he’s permanently shredded them instead of just “hiding” them, which is also an option for a moderator.
Wait till this year.
I’m sure I can have SBN tech dig up the comments,
You cannot. They are not backed up and deletions are permanent. I learned the hard way.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
Is that what they told you?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions
Condescending, huh? Maybe along the lines of something you’ve said about another blog about a certain small market team who you met in the playoffs a few years ago being filled with “irrational hatred”?
It’s touching that you’re so concerned about this issue in others. Maybe you could think about editing yourself.
Oh wait, tone isn’t against the law.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Frame that, too.
Unnecessarily snarky and condescending. As were, I might add, your comments at ILWT.
Someone must be new to the internets if you think that is “unnecessarily snarky and condescending”. So it’s not kosher to make someone look foolish when they make a foolish comment?
Follow me on twitter @CoolJ90 or add me to XBox Live - CoolJ90
Nope
questioning anybody Devils-related is wrong.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:45 AM PDT up reply actions
Irony is
That if the Kings had signed Kovy to the same exact deal and the NHL rejected it, ILWT would be crying bloody murder about how the deal is illegal.
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
Or, more likely, they’d be doing what every other SBN site is doing and having a small discussion about the whole situatin in a FanPost or two.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I don’t hang around on most other boards, but BSH is up to one main post, a mention in a second main post, and four FanPosts dealing with various portions of the fiasco. “[A] FanPost or two” would be a mischaracterization of “what every other SBN site is doing.”
Honor is no substitute for victory.
9 out the last 15 front page posts (and that only because the Frolov and Ponikarovsky deals were deemed worthy of some attention) and 6 FanPosts on the front page alone isn’t characteristic of “what every other SBN site is doing” either.
The Thrashers page of all pages has not a single mention of the entire saga… the counterbalance I guess.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Yes, it's Kovalchuk month.
Just like the weeks before the trade deadline, that gets all the attention. Just like during the playoffs, that gets all the attention. It’s a big deal. The CBA is a big deal. An arbitration on circumvention of Article 50 is a huge deal, historic actually. The looming 2012 CBA is something that concerns everybody.
It’s like Bernie Madoff (sp?) getting irritated that this isn’t just a local “New York” story.
I’m interested in what I’m interested in. What can I tell you? I think it’s pretty interesting stuff.
Wait till this year.
I wholeheartedly agree that it’s a big deal that affects everyone. Which is why it’s understandable that every site should have some coverage of it.
Some.
Your “interest” goes far beyond the effects the contract might have on future contracts and CBA negotiations. It’s personal with you.
You deign to correct people who wrote and whose job it is to interpret the CBA rather than admit you might be wrong in your amateur interpretation; you incorrectly invoke Kavka’s Toxin Puzzle which, if it applies to Kovalchuk’s contract could also be applied to every contract regardless of term or compensation, and so essentially, and incorrectly, argues that NHL contracts are unnecessary because once a player signs a deal, they have no reason to fulfill their contract; you condescendingly tear apart a post rather than civilly post your disagreement to the post itself; you again disagree with someone who helped write the document as if you might have a better understanding of it than he; and my personal favorite, you ask for joke punchlines.
There’s more, like the textbook example of false causality post many of your disciples love to point to about previous 50 goal scorers not playing past a certain age as if there were some correlation between goal scoring and longevity, but going back into this stuff is making me nauseous and reminding me why I stopped coming here to begin with.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I guess he circumvented the agreed-upon limit on Kovalchuk posts.
Your arguments about why he shouldn’t be allowed to post anything he wants or express himself in whatever manner he chooses are pretty weak. I could call them other things, but you seem touchy.
Puck Daddy, for one, finds his snark enjoyable — and he’s a Devils fan. How about just allowing that tastes can be different, and not concerning yourself with this blog at all?
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Are you trying to be some "Ivy League" type that is disgusted by the "masses"?
Elesias, most of your objections are on the “tone” of writing by Quisp. That is subjective, and you have every right to dislike tone. Apparently, the moderator at ILWT also has the right to ban whomever, for whatever reason. Okay, fine.
The point you miss is that logic rules. It is what law is based on, and is the only device that is inarguable. By criticizing tone, you project your personal taste as superior, or singularly correct. Objecting to “snarky” posts, saying Quisp “deigns” (which I think is snarky btw), calling a post “condescending”, all these things are matters of taste and individual opinion. I mean, you can’t defeat an argument by saying the opposition was insensitive, you know? That creates a separate argument to the initial facts and case in point.
If there is one thing you seem to miss, it is that above all Quisp is an analytical type who is absolutely ruled by the logic of an argument. And I am not a sycophant by supporting that, just as you are not necessarily a dickhead for disliking his tone or ignoring the actual argument made when you sidetrack (which is actually YOU raising strawmen) the discussion by attacking tone.
It’s like putting your head in the sand when you say his “interest” is too much, or that the issue has somehow become “personal” with him. The contradiction is when you criticize him personally by discussing his delivery and then attack him again for taking personal insults personally. But my main point is this; it’s easy to discount someone’s logical premise by simply saying “I don’t like your attitude”. Or, for example, doing something that angers someone, and when they react angrily saying, “Don’t start giving me attitude.” These are all schoolyard tactics that escalate the argument into the wasteland of pointless back and forth personal attacks. When you reaffirm the criticism of tone by saying he proved it by proving it, or that he did it because I say so, it reminds of my favorite (as in most absurd) argument catch-22: “Don’t be so defensive.” “I’m not.” “See, I told you.”
Quisp is easy to defeat; First, you have to form an understanding of the legal document (the CBA) in question, as has Quisp. Then, you post your WORKING INTERPRETATION for all to see, and when people elucidate gray areas, you adjust that WORKING INTERPRETATION. Then, you form a supportable opinion based on cited clauses from that document. When others disagree, some by citing related clauses from the document, you then reaffirm your point by finding contradictions to their argument, again citing those contradictions in specific, numbered instances from within that document. This we call “arguing”, as in DEBATE.
Or, you could run around saying “He talks mean.” Of course, that is also called arguing, but not in the same sense.
Lastly, I guess you feel like you can be “snarky” without it being objectionable, as if you are giving back in turn to those who deserve it. I assume you wish us to think it is something you would never do, unless you were provoked repeatedly and must therefore answer in kind with righteous indignation. I probably don’t buy it, but that would be conjecture, something I (unlike you) am able to contain.
Your repeated conclusions that Kings fans would act a certain way given the situation being reversed is not only an insulting generalization, but is also insulting us by ignoring the many posters here that actually have the ability for independent thought. Although it’s easy for you to say, it is impossible, again, for you to support logically. Here at JFTC the debate “rages”; it is no surprise that tone varies widely, and many disagree with Quisp in a well-formed, logical way. I had thought that seeing this would not require a particularly deep thinker, but I admit I may have been wrong since you have inspired me to re-evaluate that.
End Corporate Personhood.
by Player-X on Jul 28, 2010 7:46 AM PDT up reply actions 7 recs
most of your objections are on the "tone" of writing by Quisp
Most, but not all. Way to gloss over those.
To your rant about tone: as I said, I’m not going to get into a debate about what he posts on his own site. If his defense of his constant posts is that he has an interest in the broad application of the procedure to the rest of the league, then he should stick to discussing that application.
Your repeated conclusions that Kings fans would act a certain way given the situation being reversed is not only an insulting generalization, but is also insulting us by ignoring the many posters here that actually have the ability for independent thought
Huh? Where did I repeatedly conclude that Kings fans would react a certain way?
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
But everything I post is on "my own" site
This thread is simply a way to continue the dialogue that your moderator on your blog felt was inappropriate. I disagree.
Wait till this year.
Player-X: yes and we also have unreasonable brawls. I am frequently wrong, and frequently admit it.
Aren’t we all?
I thought Frolov would score 35 goals.
Wait till this year.
Wow.
you incorrectly invoke Kavka’s Toxin Puzzle which, if it applies to Kovalchuk’s contract could also be applied to every contract regardless of term or compensation, and so essentially, and incorrectly, argues that NHL contracts are unnecessary because once a player signs a deal, they have no reason to fulfill their contract;
Wrong. He correctly invokes Kavka’s Toxin Puzzle because it refers to getting money up front to “intend” to do something later. This does apply to Kovalchuk because of his redonkulously front-loaded deal. This does NOT apply to all contracts because they are not all crazily front-loaded. Terrible analysis.
you condescendingly tear apart a post rather than civilly post your disagreement to the post itself;
If you read the post, he CAN’T do what you ask because he was censored from the “post itself”. It’s pretty difficult to be civil in an arena when you can’t enter it.
you again disagree with someone who helped write the document as if you might have a better understanding of it than he
Do you blindly obey whatever somebody tells you? Do you not question things? If not, you’d be a great serf. The free world is wasted on a blind follower like you.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Wrong. He correctly invokes Kavka’s Toxin Puzzle because it refers to getting money up front to "intend" to do something later. This does apply to Kovalchuk because of his redonkulously front-loaded deal. This does NOT apply to all contracts because they are not all crazily front-loaded. Terrible analysis.
Any player that signs a contract and receives money up front is expressing an intent to do something later, no? By this same argument, the entire credit system is flawed because institutions are lending money to people who “intend” to repay them.
The thought experiment is improperly applied here because the person in the example is not contractually or otherwise legally bound to honor the agreement, whereas the player signing the contract would be.
If you read the post, he CAN’T do what you ask because he was censored from the "post itself". It’s pretty difficult to be civil in an arena when you can’t enter it.
He wasn’t at the time.
you again disagree with someone who helped write the document as if you might have a better understanding of it than he
No, but I tend to defer to an expert on something when they’re discussing something I’m an amateur at.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Perfect.
The thought experiment is improperly applied here because the person in the example is not contractually or otherwise legally bound to honor the agreement, whereas the player signing the contract would be.
Kovalchuk has a perfectly legal way of getting out of the contract in retirement. The idea of leaving for the KHL and large sums of money in his 40’s (assuming he can still skate) has been floated by many pundit all along. The stupid near-minimum salary he’s getting for 5 years is a testament to that idea.
No, but I tend to defer to an expert on something when they’re discussing something I’m an amateur at.
What does that even mean? When should Quisp “tend” to defer to Lou and when shouldn’t he? When you think he should because you disagree with Quisp and agree with Lou? When is it and isn’t it okay to question an “expert”?
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk has a perfectly legal way of getting out of the contract in retirement. The idea of leaving for the KHL and large sums of money in his 40’s (assuming he can still skate) has been floated by many pundit all along. The stupid near-minimum salary he’s getting for 5 years is a testament to that idea.
That’s irrelevant to the application of the excercise. All players have that out.
What does that even mean?
It means that when a complex issue arises out of a legal document, the logical thing is to believe that one of its authors has a better understanding of it than one with an recently awakened interest in the matter.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Buddy, use your brain please.
That’s irrelevant to the application of the excercise. All players have that out.
It’s not irrelevant when you put it along with the fact that he’s getting up front money like nobody else in history (tantamount to a huge signing bonus). Not all players have a deal like that, in fact NO players have a deal like this which is why it garnered such scrutiny in the first place.
Also, not all players have that ability as any player who signs a deal after age 35 cannot retire without a cap penalty, but you already knew that.
It means that when a complex issue arises out of a legal document, the logical thing is to believe that one of its authors has a better understanding of it than one with an recently awakened interest in the matter.
What about when said author also has a decidedly one-sided interest in the outcome of dispute? I’d tend to think that author was biased about the interpretation and would be open to questioning.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:38 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s not irrelevant when you put it along with the fact that he’s getting up front money like nobody else in history (tantamount to a huge signing bonus). Not all players have a deal like that, in fact NO players have a deal like this which is why it garnered such scrutiny in the first place.
It’s irrelevant because the exercise is about the intent to perform an action one has already been paid to do. The dollar amount or manner in which the payment is received doesn’t matter.
If one applies the exercise to the Kovalchuk deal, then one can apply it to any deal.
Also, not all players have that ability as any player who signs a deal after age 35 cannot retire without a cap penalty, but you already knew that.
Right. And yet that doesn’t defeat my point that Kovalchuk’s ability to retire to get out of the contract is not unique to him.
What about when said author also has a decidedly one-sided interest in the outcome of dispute?
Like, say, Quisp?
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
What?
It’s irrelevant because the exercise is about the intent to perform an action one has already been paid to do. The dollar amount or manner in which the payment is received doesn’t matter.
If one applies the exercise to the Kovalchuk deal, then one can apply it to any deal.
Non-front-loaded contracts (like 99% of NHL contracts) pay the player as they go along. I.e. NOT UP FRONT. Kovalchuk’s deal pays him all at the beginning.
Not up front and up front are different and therefore the deals are not equivocal. Kavka applies to up front payments.
Right. And yet that doesn’t defeat my point that Kovalchuk’s ability to retire to get out of the contract is not unique to him.
You’re right, but it does nullify your constant overstatements about contract equality.
Like, say, Quisp?
Sure, question him all you want. I would disagree that he has a decidedly one-sided interest like Lou but having an opinion means defending it. You seem to want Quisp to defend himself without Lou having to respond.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:52 AM PDT up reply actions
The difference you continue to overlook is that the player is contractually obligated to fulfill his duty to continually get paid. The exercise is a theoretical situation in which a person is paid if he just agrees to perform a task in the future.
You’re right, but it does nullify your constant overstatements about contract equality.
Not contract equality, but that most players have the same options to negate a contract, so using that “out” to condemn one player is disingenuous.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
The difference YOU continue to overlook
is that he can legally remove himself from the contract through retirement. That allows him to seek payment (more I might add) from another employer in Russia. So Kovy has “agreed to perform the task” but can just as easily get out of performing it with no penalty.
It’s not disingenuous when it’s so blatantly applied. This is the reason the deal was scrutinized as I said before. This deal, more than any other deal before it, breaks those rules and finally forced the NHL hand.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 9:01 AM PDT up reply actions
Any player can retire and seek payment from another employer in Russia… even the ones on a 35+ contract.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
That's fine.
That part doesn’t matter. What matters is that Kovy can do it also. When you couple that (see what I’m doing here? Deductive reasoning?) along with the structure of the contract (i.e. like nothing that’s ever been done before, front loading wise) you get a person who gets paid 95% of the money up front and then can default on the contract legally. Not other NHLers can do it because they would be forfeiting much more than 5% of their salary. Not Kovy.
This is artificial salary cap number lowering and strictly a circumvention of the intent of the salary cap. This effect, whether intended or not makes it a violation.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 9:08 AM PDT up reply actions
You must be joking
Then you don’t understand the puzzle, the contract situation, deductive logic or any combination of those three things.
In any event, this argument is hopeless because refuse to listen to plain reason. I’m done with you and your Kool-Aid.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 9:15 AM PDT up reply actions
That must be it.
No chance it might be you who isn’t grasping the differences between the Puzzle and the contract, right?
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Yup
If you can’t see the relation between an up-front payment puzzle and an up-front payment contract than one of those things applies.
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 9:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Legitimate Question Alert -- Not Being Disingenuous*
That’s irrelevant to the application of the excercise. All players have that out.
Not contract equality, but that most players have the same options to negate a contract, so using that "out" to condemn one player is disingenuous.
Is the “All” in the first quote (your bolding) different from the “most” in the second one (my bolding)?
*I believe this thread should qualify for some sort of commemorative plaque for the most uses of the term “disingenuous”.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
It’s irrelevant because the exercise is about the intent to perform an action one has already been paid to do. The dollar amount or manner in which the payment is received doesn’t matter.
If one applies the exercise to the Kovalchuk deal, then one can apply it to any deal.
Not at all. The devil truly is in the details in this one. Let’s look at, to use an example I’m familiar with, the Mike Richards contract – 12 years, $69 million. He presumably intends to play the entire contract. If he walks with five years left , he loses $22 million, which is 31.9% of the contract. The Kavka Paradox doesn’t apply here, because the amount paid “up front” is not the vast majority of the total; there is still a significant reward for carrying through with the allegedly intended action. In the proposed Kovalchuk contract, if he leaves with five years left, he loses $2.75m, or 2.7% of the contract. Moving another year back, he has no significant reason not to leave the 2020-21 season (when he will receive $3.5 million), as the remainder of the contract pays him that same amount over six years. While he may claim to intend to perform to the contract, there is no reason to believe he actually does, and it is very doubtful that he will due to the lack of any significant penalty if he fails to do so.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
And in case anyone wants to say that the Richards contract is shorter, so the percentage should be larger anyway:
The Richards contract is 12 years. 5 years is 41.67% of that length. The money he would receive during those five years is 31.9%, which is 76.6% of what a totally flat contract would pay during that time frame.
The Kovalchuk contract is 17 years. 5 years is 29.4% of that length. The money he’ll receive during those five years is 2.7% of the contract, or 9.2% of what a flat contract would pay.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I have zero stake in the outcome. But I do have interest, in the sense that, well, I'm interested.
What I have special interest in is the argument, by which I mean, the reasoning behind the rule and/or breaking the rule and what’s allowed and what isn’t.
My point has never been “the league will kick your ass” or “the league will win” or “the league is right and the devils are wrong.” It’s “the league has a case.”
Period.
The NHLPA has a case, also. But not when you guys are making it.
Wait till this year.
"Any player that signs a contract and receives money up front is expressing an intent to do something later, no?"
That’s not what the toxin puzzle is about. The player expressing intent to do something later is intending to do something that if he doesn’t do he doesn’t get paid. In the toxin puzzle, the person has already been paid in full and it can’t be taken back, and he was only paid in full because he intended to do something PAINFUL that he intended to do only to get the money but that when it gets time to do that thing he will have no rational reason to do it.
Kovalchuk wanted 100MM over ten years. He got it. When he’s got it all, and it can’t be taken back, he has no rational reason to continue to play for what will be about half of the minimum wage at that time.
Wait till this year.
That’s not what the toxin puzzle is about. The player expressing intent to do something later is intending to do something that if he doesn’t do he doesn’t get paid. In the toxin puzzle, the person has already been paid in full and it can’t be taken back, and he was only paid in full because he intended to do something PAINFUL that he intended to do only to get the money but that when it gets time to do that thing he will have no rational reason to do it.
Which is precisely why it doesn’t apply… which was my point.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
You keep going on about civility, but I find it strange that you won’t address the fact that you and other posters got upset about what Quisp was posting on his own blog and proceeded to insult him on ILWT first. Thus triggering the “unreasonable” comment, where Quisp was banned for personal attacks.
From what I can gather about that site, the standard is pretty much “Okay if we’re doing it.”
In Dinglebarn We Trust
for clarification,
the charge is not that I made an unreasonable comment, but that I called the commenters’ comments about me “unreasonable.” The word unreasonable is the offensive word I used.
Wait till this year.
Neisy
I couldnt agree more with you. It seems as long as the argument is in favor of the Devils then its fine. However, try to argue logically the other side of the argument and all you are met with posturing and baseless attacks without giving the person being attacked the reasonable ability to respond. Instead Quisp got the ban hammer for nothing other than showing the other side of the argument, oh yes they say for being offensive etc but how can we verify that if its removed? Quick smother the truth or anything that doesnt go along with what we believe!
Am I the only one that finds Elesias’ sig ironic?
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
pretty much the feel I get over there is that if you aren’t a devils fan, tread very carefully – they can say all the shit they wish, you utter one thing wrong and out you go. just a general feeling I have.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
How dare you break our bubble of insanity?!?
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions
There is no logic
on that site. They are steadfast in their opinion and how they veiw the CBA. That is fine as you should be resolute in your opinions but you if you are unwilling to learn and listen to other opinions or ideas you will break before you bend. Its just a shame as this could be a logical discourse but has turned into drivel.
To blatantly disregard someones opinion while continously attacking them is nothing more than a child yelling and screaming over you while you try to reason with them.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Not at all. We host fans of some of our most hated rivals civilly and carry on intelligent debates.
What happened with this is that as soon as news broke of the contract and the subsequent rejection by the League, countless weekend contract lawyers and Kovalchuk and/or Devils haters poured out of the woodwork and it quickly became a kind of “defending the turf” situation.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
But isnt
that the whole points of these sites? To be able to argue ones point without turning it into a pissing match? We ALL are jailhouse lawyers in this matter, unless one of us is a lawyer with personal knowledge in this case. Quisp just showed the other side of the coin and instead of being listened to as an excellent argument, it turned into an automatic discount of his opinion because he wasnt “for” the Devils. I dont see how any of Quisp’s comments or articles have not been civil or intelligent. That just doesnt makes sense.
The Kings have no stake in Kovi any longer but the situation for the whole league makes this interesting.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Again, I do not know why he was banned, nor have anything to do with it. However, there are ramifications of the Kovalchuk contract decision, no matter what side “wins.”
ILWT has commentors on both sides of the argument, and have, from the beginning. The poll on our site, as has been pointed out here, has about a 85% – 15% split. Clearly that means that 15% believe that the NHL will win the case. The arguments from those people are not discredited unless what they argue is simply ‘conjecture.’
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I’m willing to take a wild guess and say that the TSN poll might be more accurate in how the fans around the league feels. The link to that poll is located in that same post where yours is. I think your poll is heavily Devils vs the few non-biased fans that come by.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
I think the two polls are worded so very differently that they cannot be gauged the same way. On ILWT, the poll asks explicitly, “Which side do you think will win?” not “Which side do you want to win?”
The poll on TSN asks who is at fault, Kovy/NHLPA, the NHL, or Both. Its a different question. I have no doubt the majority of people feel the contract is something they dont want to see. But to those who have spent time reading the CBA (such as readers of ILWT AND JFTC) have more insight than most of the poll takers at TSN.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Wont Devils fans still say the Devils will win the case due to them being Devils fans?? I wish people werent biased but of course they are going to say that they will win on a Devils poll on a Devils site.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Some will. Just like some random Flyers/Rangers/Islanders/Penguins fan will say the League will win the case due to their team allegience.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
meanwhile
I never said I think or know one side or the other is going to “win.” Well, that isn’t a very good sentence. One of them will win, that I know. I don’t believe it’s possible to know who will win. It’s a coin toss, as I have said from the beginning.
Wait till this year.
which I stated at your site … that I understood your position and anyone in it would be doing the same … and how I understood your only wanting to see the facts one way … instead of considering the NHL and others might have a point … to which I was called snarky by your leader … which was never my intent … trust me, you guys are not welcoming to new ideas at all in this.
Quisp is not the only blogger out there that has pointed out the NHL might have a leg to stand on, but all anyone there says is “show me the proof” but every thing you see is just not good enough. It could go either way, but you have blinders on and insist it can only go one way.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Because, I expect, after the umpteenth “the Devils are cheating!” post, people got tired of defending the accusation and started asking for some evidence that the contract violates the CBA.
Differing opinions are not automatically rejected there any more than they are anywhere else, but when two of the authors of the CBA get together and construct a contract and then say that it fully complies, it’s reasonable to expect some evidence that disproves that rather than “it doesn’t pass the smell test” – a favorite of some posters.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
But
cant the same be true for the Devils take on the matter? For all the “Devils are Cheating” posts isnt there the same amount of “the Devils didnt do anything wrong” posts? Thats like saying we can do it bu you cant, and wouldnt the burden of proof lie with the NHLPA/Devils since the accusation has already been made that the Devils are trying to circumvent the CBA?
The proof argument again goes either way, you ask the NHL for proof of Kovi bailing on his contract and then NHL can ask the same thing in regards to Kovi not bailing on the contract. My point is, ILWT tends to only favor the Devils side, which is fine its your biase, but to ignore any counter argument or to always respond with “Wheres the proof?!” is ludicrous at best as it can be argued with the same sense of “logic”.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Arghgh
no edit option, my spelling is horrendous. I swear Im not that terrible.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
That’s where the request for proof came from. No one at ILWT declared themselves an expert on the nuances of the CBA, but we do have some precedence to believe Lamoriello knows what he’s talking about.
The battle cry of “Prove it!” came about because there were countless accusations grounded in emotional responses rather than a rational thought.
As to proof going either way, that’s what the arbiter is for. Will be for. Can be for. Whichever one applies at this moment.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
Very true
on the proof going either way but why is it that Devils fans are so adamant that it will go their way? Again, this all stems from Quisp presenting a counter argument and then being lambasted because it didnt fit with the rest of the Devils crowd mentality. I would also believe that the league has an idea about the CBA as well.
The battle cry of "Prove it!" came about because there were countless accusations grounded in emotional responses rather than a rational thought.
Just as there from the Devils fans correct? You cant look at one and not the other. Its like believing in good but not believing in evil. I really dont believe the arguements made by intelligent Kings fans were not logical, but Ill be the first to agree that both sides have biased and emotional fans, I just happen to referring to Quisp as this is his site.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Hmm
so thats how the quote things works…
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Actually, most Devils fans are pretty reasonable in accepting that once it goes before an arbiter it could go either way.
Things have calmed down since that first couple of days and cooler heads have prevailed.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
I would just like to point out that this dialogue
the one that’s happening right now, after the heated whatever died down, is already exponentially more interesting than anything I have seen on ILWT in my admittedly very limited exposure to it (all Kovalchuk related). Why is that? I’m not being a dick here. I just think it has to do with a general atmosphere of being open to valid points and not attacking them or deleting them or prohibiting them.
Of course, I’m only half way through the comments. I’ll probably regret saying that. The last time I said anything of the kind was when I said everything was so “civil” at ILWT, right before getting banned for life.
Wait till this year.
That’s the weird thing about it — Quisp has never asserted it will go only one way or that the Devils will definitely lose this arbitration. All he’s saying is that the NHL had grounds to reject it within the CBA.
Every single fan — heck, every single person on this Earth — is biased. That doesn’t preclude one from also being right. The responsible thing to do is outline your reasoning, which Quisp has done.
Okay, I think I’m done for the day on this subject. Cheers, everyone.
In Dinglebarn We Trust
Heeeeere, Niesy. Heeeeeere Niesy-Niecy. Froooooolov. Frolov.
You want your little Frolov? ….
Wait till this year.
Good luck getting her back into this shitstorm. Or, I mean sh*tstorm.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:32 AM PDT up reply actions
I didn't say anything that was even remotely confrontational on your site, except in the last two comments, both of which were responses to attack
All I did before that was make innocuous comments about the CBA, some of which I believe your blog used to correct its own posts. Oh, and I complimented your civility. Because I hadn’t seen all the garbage yet.
Wait till this year.
Garbage? What garbage?
You just want people to feel sorry for you bandwagon king fans. When people actually brought up the exact writing of the CBA you panicked and just started to lash out on Devil fans.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:23 AM PDT up reply actions
Did you see the comments from your own group that were bashing Quisp? Did you even do anything to tell your own kind to knock it the hell off? He only responded when he heard about it to defend himself. In response to “he didn’t have the guts to man up and comment there himself”. Yet when he does, he gets his comments deleted and then banned. ha!
As to “bandwagon king fans”, I would like to point out, I am not a Kings fan. In fact, hate the Kings. I just find this whole Kovy situation very interesting and being put in the position to defend a Kings fan I’m sure will haunt me till the day I die.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
What really makes this
shitty, is that Quisp cannot even have comments to show. He is just banned and we have to go by what ILWT fans are saying (uh yeeeeah right). I would love to really see what was said and if all this spite is even remotely warranted.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
We love you too, Ang:)
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
We host fans of some of our most hated rivals civilly and carry on intelligent debates.
I guess the Flyers aren’t some of your most hated rivals then.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
by Geoff Detweiler on Jul 28, 2010 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions
Perhaps not, but apparently the Broad Street Bullies Era Flyers have been named fourth ‘most hated’ sports team of all-time by these folks, if that’s any consolation.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:38 PM PDT up reply actions
:)
“deign”
I deign with extreme prejudice. But I don’t know who I’m correcting in this case, since it’s an unnamed source. Nobody said it was the unnamed source’s job to interpret the CBA did they?
“amateur interpretation”
In at least one sense of the word. However, I am correct that the CBA says what I say it says in that post.
“incorrectly invoke Kavka’s toxin puzzle”
The puzzle is a paradox. A reader wrote to Puck Daddy about it. He posted the comment. I read it. I agreed that the comparison was interesting.
“incorrectly argues that NHL contracts are unnecessary”
No, because SPCs in general (99.9% of them) guarantee payment in return for work the player actually intends to perform. In Kavka, the whole point is that the person receives his payment on Tuesday if on Monday he intends to do something on Wednesday that he won’t want to do when he gets to Wednesday because he got paid all he wants on Tuesday.
With regard to “all NHL contracts,” most players get paid for their work as they go along.
“condescendingly tear apart a post…rather than civilly [comment]” — you’re forgetting that I already did that in the comments to previous ILWT posts, making some of the same points. He elaborated in his post. I responded in mine.
Also, you have to remember that most people don’t read comments. So if I want to articulate a response to someone’s post, the best place for me to do it — in fact, the place SBN contracts me to do it, is in a post on this blog.
“disagree with someone who helped write the document…as if you might have a better understanding” — well, as I say in the post, he knows everything I’m saying. I don’t have a better understanding of the CBA that Lamoriello. As I said in my second to last comment on ILWT before the banning, I think LL is a genius to be worshipped and studied. I also said in that same comment that I was impressed with how civil the discussion was on ILWT.
I would be surprised, based on the press conference, if Lamoriello was exercising free will in making this deal.
“jokes”
Yes. Because whenever something like this happen, jokes seem to pop up. “What kind of wood doesn’t float? Natalie.” etc… You can make fun of IK, or he CBA, the contract, the situation, Bettman, management, take your pick. My favorite was
“Why did Kovalchuk cross the road?”
“He thought he had a deal.”
Who does that make fun of? Not IK. It makes fun of the league, of the situation. It’s good. I like it.
“false causality”
You’re confusing correlation and causality, which is actually the definition of the fallacy you’re referring to. Correlation does not imply causality. That’s what the False Causality Fallacy. I am pointing to a correlation. You can agree or disagree that it’s a meaningful correlation — that is to say — that the correlation is irrelevant, as if I said “no one with blond hair has ever played to the age of 44 in the NHL.” But nobody said anything about causality except you.
I didn’t say that being a 50 goal scorer causes you to retire before 44. I said, historically, if you happen to be one, you don’t happen to get there.
“reminding me why I stopped coming here”
You didn’t stop.
Wait till this year.
by Quisp on Jul 28, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Why am I reading jokes?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
I am new to this whole SBN site, but the entire hockey community has been abuzz about the Kovalchuk contract situation and what it means. I don’t care too much that the Kings didn’t sign him. But as a union-side lawyer I am absolutely fascinated by the implications of what is going on.
Quisp has always posted a lot about the collective bargaining agreement on other boards I read, and, while this is a Kings site, his posts are not out of line with what he has been posting in the past. Maybe the fans on ILWT care more about the game and the players. But some of us are fascinated by the business of hockey in addition to just the game and players on the ice.
If Quisp’s posts were full of complaints about the Devils cheating and claims about how Lombardi got screwed over by Grossman, with no basis in the CBA to support them, then I’d say you have a reasonable argument that there is a sour grapes feel here. But he is looking at the collective bargaining agreement and interpeting it and trying to make sense of it to the average fan who might have interest in the business of hockey. While I don’t always agree with his interpretation (and such is the nature of vague collective bargaining agreements), he is doing an excellent job of making a very difficult document understandable to the fans who may not otherwise understand it.
And, by the way, as for his disagreeing with Lou’s interpretation of the agreement (which, from Lou’s own public statements, it seems to me he knew they were walking a tightrope with this deal), I can almost guarantee you that nearly every person who participated in those negotiations reads each provision a little differently than every other person. It is the nature of collective bargaining and the very reason why these agreements are often written in a very vague manner. I would bet money that among the evidence each sides introduces at arbitration there will be notes from the negotiations and copies of proposals intended to show how each side intended those provisions to read. Was his tone a little self-righteous, maybe, but he was not at all wrong to disagree with Lou’s interpretation.
by DVLEsq on Jul 28, 2010 2:27 PM PDT up reply actions 3 recs
Rec’d for insight.
I’d like to see how your interpretations and ideas differ from or agree with Quisp’s if you have time.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:30 PM PDT up reply actions
DVLEsq weighed in on the other posts, and there is quite a bit of back and forth.
Easiest way to find the comments would be to go to the DVEsq profile and click through to her comments.
Wait till this year.
That I can do. I was looking for an overview, maybe something she had posted elsewhere and could put up as a FanPost.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:43 PM PDT up reply actions
Besides, I don’t disagree with Quisp all that much. :)
Quisp had suggested I do a FanPost and I’m contemplating doing something… it’s just a matter of time (I don’t know how Quisp manages!).
I’ve only been reading and commenting on JFTC a short time but my impression of him (her?) is of a very high-energy, fast-metabolism type of person who is even-tempered, intelligent and patient. I look forward to your FanPost if it progresses past the contemplation stage and enters the realm of posting.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:25 PM PDT up reply actions
Quisp also knows very well who is behind the shelter in the middle of a roundabout and what she is doing, which I like.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions
You explicitly stated “every other SBN site” (emphasis added, since it implies every site except JftC) was limiting Kovy talk to “a FanPost or two.” I pointed out that BSH had done quite a lot more than that, and you come back with JftC not being characteristic of every site other than JftC. Congratulations, Captain Obvious! You missed the point that you said everyone else was limiting this to almost no discussion, which is not the case.
Is JftC discussing it more than other sites? Sure. For one, LA was involved in the negotiations, so it’s more of an interest. Additionally, Quisp has an interest in the CBA (as do DragonGirl and I and a couple others on BSH), so that generates additional writing. Besides, there’s nothing much else going on with the NHL right now for the teams that have finished filling out their rosters, so this is about the only thing worth discussing, particularly since it may have an impact on the next CBA.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I’d disagree that “one main post, a mention in a second main post, and four FanPosts dealing with various portions of the fiasco” is “quite a lot more than” a FanPost or two.
I’ll admit “a FanPost or two” was slight hyperbole, but you miss the point that JftC is, comparatively, excessively covering the story.
I’m not going to get into a discussion about how he should run his site… it’s his site to do as he pleases. This is stemming from a comment made that if it were the Kings that had done this deal and league rejected it, ILWT would be reacting this way… a point I still disagree with.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
PPP had about 30 fanpost’s worth of comments in the two or three that they did (I’ll admit would probably happen if a butterfly flaps its wings above Burke’s head)… I’d have written 10 posts on DBTB myself but no one would have read them :(. Behindthenet did about 5 (not including the ones before he was signed)…
All the stats blogs have a lot of rage. Approximatly 33% more rageposts than they had for the hossa contract…
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
"if one house in a thousand lasted thirty years, there wouldn't be thirty year mortgages."
I’ve got a beautiful frame picked out for that one Quisp, nice!!!
I guess that makes me a sycophant…
Those guys are tools for banning you. What the hell is that? If you don’t agree with the herd and are “inflammatory” in your posts that warrants banning God forbid someone posts a legitimate counter argument to the gospel of ILWT. Is this red china or a sports message board in America? People are such vaginas.
if one house in a thousand lasted thirty years, there wouldn’t be thirty year mortgages....
“The point of the analogy, which I never claimed to be a perfect one, was that people commit large quantities of resources to uncertain futures with the expectation that things will work out all the time.”
You’re absolutely right, it’s a pretty horrible analogy when you look beyond the surface. I don’t know about you, but i don’t expect something with 1:1000 event frequency to “work out all the time”. If you do, i’ve got some investment opportunities for you….
BTW-Welcome to JFTC, where you WON’T be banned for expressing a different opinion.
I think what we’ve all learned from this situation (from CERTAIN Devlis fans points of view) is that Dean Lombardi and Steve Yzerman should both sign their huge RFA’s (Doughty and Stamkos) to 25-30 year contracts, because you can’t prove that neither player doesn’t intend to play until their 50s.
Follow me on twitter @CoolJ90 or add me to XBox Live - CoolJ90
by CoolJ90 on Jul 28, 2010 8:52 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Anyway, elesias
I appreciate the time you’re taking to comment. I’m sure you’re not a bad person when you’re not stirred up with worry about the Kovalchuk thing. I personally have no dog in this fight, although obviously all Kings fans paid quite a lot of attention the first three weeks of July when he was or wasn’t considering the Kings as a destination.
There really isn’t any hidden agenda or animosity. I posted my several Kovalchuk related posts for a few weeks, you and a few others derided them in your comments, I came over to play nice and show you I wasn’t a bad guy, I left, you continued to mock, I came back and saw the mocking, which mocked me for not responding, I responded and got banned. So here we are. It’s perfectly valid for bloggers to link to and comment on other bloggers’ or writers’ work. That’s the meat and potatoes of blogging. I personally spend exponentially more time answering people in comments than most people who do this, and the reason they don’t is, their writing is supposed to go on their blog, in the post, not in the comments where no one can find it.
Bottom line: you’re always welcome here. Stay here long enough, I’m sure somebody here can win you over.
Wait till this year.
by Quisp on Jul 28, 2010 8:55 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Now you're too civil!
Where’s the condescension?
by 88fingerslukee on Jul 28, 2010 8:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Whoa whoa
WHOA, take it easy there buddy lets not get carried away and get yourself…. banned or something.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
This is what we were all trying to avoid – the back and forth that results in just bashing of each other, instead of commenting on each others’ comments with logical discussions. It was something that we all discussed at ILWT, as to not engage in the back and forth to avoid situations like we have here now.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
So ILWT’s method of avoiding it was to let the commenters bash Quisp and not let him respond? (or more when he does respond, ban him)
Good plan. :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Hmm
Yeah dont understand that there logic. So it can be argued and civil ONLY if you are Devils fan? Is that correct?
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Of course not, it can be argued as long as its civil, regardless of your affiliation or lack thereof.
The logic is that ILWT had internal discussions for all to read, for all that post, regardless of affiliation, not to engage in the back and forth of offensive or inflammatory comments in place of logic.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
But
is it only imflammatory when a user argues agains the general opinion of the group? Thats what seems to be case as most commenters on ILWT are Devils fans and wholeheartedly disagree with Quisp or any arguments against their belief. Having a good debate can be construed as inflammatory but it also can be considered as just that, a good debate.
Censoring someone or banning them based upon their differing opinions is ridiculous. I really wish we could see what Quisp wrote so we could actually make a rational opinion on this subject.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Arguing an opposing view itself is not Inflammatory, just argumentative. We’re mostly from Jersey… if being argumentative were a bannable offense, there’d be very few members left.
Playing Devils' advocate since 1982.
by elesias on Jul 28, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
No, I certainly do not believe so (to your 1st question). Yes, most commenters on ILWT are Devils fans, sure. But there are arguments, from Devils fans, that are counter to what the majority believes, such as the NHL having grounds to reject the Kovalchuk contract.
I hope no “good debate” is ever seen as inflammatory, it the language used as well as the diction in trying to make a point that tends to be inflammatory.
I wish I could see what the situation came down to as well, in context of course. But still, it would be the opinion, or intention, of no more than 5 people, and most likely the decision of just one, not necessarily the entire site.
As of now, the situation with Quisp at ILWT seems to be much like the situation here is when they see Fischer.
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
I think the only issue anyone has with Fischer is that he banned Quisp. I don’t think anyone has a problem with him about his ideas on the CBA or Kovalchuk situation, other than most disagree.
Personally, I think he just didn't want my opinion around so he got rid of it the first chance he got
the rest of it would have been handled just fine in the comments, were that allowed to be possible. I’m quite sure no devils fan was offended that I called their comments unreasonable. And whatever his name is ought to have been able to respond to me in public about why he deleted me in public, especially since he was censoring responses I made in public to comments directly at me, in public.
He chose not to. So, like I said, here we are.
Wait till this year.
What was the time frame on the commenters bashing Quisp? When did the derisive comments from one side start? How much ‘time’ was there between the start of this and the ‘banning’ of Quisp?
When you group ILWT as one entity, you are grouping a total of 5 people (who run and/or author the site), not the commenters. I wonder the level of control SBNation sites have over ALL the people that comment. It doesnt quite work that way, does it?
"Don't worry about my Cap." - Lou Lamoriello
Hmm
As for the time frame and derisive comments I would let Quisp answer that as it deals with him. I dont mean to group all the commenters but just the ones to ban said commenters erroneously. From what I can tell, the reason for banning Quisp was using * to cover swearing which by that reason alone he was within the user agreement. Thats up for interpretation I would guess.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
are you kidding … once October comes along, then we’ll really hate each other … :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Yes, true…but at least we’ll be watching games.
Here’s to hoping that the arbitrator in the Kovalchuk case is King Solomon
I just think it’s funny that I’ve never been banned from an SBNation site but Quisp has.*
*I was warned by Mile High Hockey for cheering when Jack Johnson almost murdered Ryan Smyth. I probably deserved that.
houses do last 30 years. its funny how bitter you guys are for kovalchuk wanting to sign in a place he feels like he has a better chance of winning in. Way better than los Angeles
Uh what?
I dont think anyone here is really bitter at all. Did you read any of the comments? All we are really interested in is what happens with the ever so vague CBA and the ruling that will be coming down. I guarantee you that Kings fans dont want anything to do with Kovi, especially with his atrocious requests with salary.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
6 cap hit for kovy is atrocious yet ponikarovsky is worth 3 mil
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
No, I think a $6MM cap hit for Kovy is a good deal.
I outlined that many months ago. That was my own personal cap line in the sand. I think I said something like
10 years / $60MM
11
11
10
9
7
5
3
2
1
1
See?
Wait till this year.
you don’t need to prove that he wants to play there rofl they have to go by his statement and the contract says that he will by the rules he practically has too because he is signed until due date
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions
What a nightmare...
I have been coming to this site for about 6 months now, and not once have i seen Quisp try to push his points of view on anyone. Everyone has had the ability to share their opinions even if said opinions differ from the host. Now, these guys from ILWT who got upset with Quisp’s inflammatory comments saw it necessary to then come over here and strike up mindless banter and just came here to argue for the sake of arguing. It took me nearly an hour to read all these comments and i gotta say…way to go JFTC posters! This Elisias guy is an idiot…that whole puzzle paradox thing is totally applicable to the IK contract and he is just in denial. I am personally proud of all of you for not going against what good logic tells us all to be the truth. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck….you get the idea, and so does most of the world and 15% of ILWT, according to their poll.
The only reason i think this became more than say an occasional topic is because we, as kings fans, were subjected to a long drawn out attempt to sign IK. Had we not been in the running, we may not have as much enthusiasm for this topic.
I think the contract is crap…thats my opinion. Based totally on the saying you cant bullshit a bullshitter….
If they wanna disagree thats fine, but come here and say you want to argue logic then dismiss what are clear examples of said logic.
I also think its funny that before this i didnt mind the devils, now i hope the dont make the playoffs….
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
mindless banter? this is THE ONLY sb nation that disagress with the devils side. why? bitterness
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Nope
logic. Saying that this is the only side that disagrees because of bitterness is laughable. Im pretty sure other sites actually argue a lot of the same facts. Some are for and some are against. Whats strange is you come here and try to incite us, but really no one cares about Kovi other than whats the ruling.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
what do you mean come here and incite you guys… you wrote about US and saying how WERE stupid look up
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I am going to read this without commenting before just to add fuel to the fire.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Except in reality
I had never even heard of any of you until people started sending me your comments and saying “what’s up with this? why do they hate you?” I strolled on over eventually and found that the few comments I had been sent were just the tip of the iceberg.
Wait till this year.
Actually you would be wrong in that statement. Both Behind the Net and From the Rink have said that the NHL might have a case. Links of which I have put up at ILWT. :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
might have a case alright but still no chance. they are just stating what the nhl has to say because it is extremely vague
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions
you don’t know that … it could go either way … all the NHL has to show is that it has the effect of circumventing the cap … that might not be all that difficult to prove.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
all he needs to say to counteract that is im playing till im 44 i dont care how much i get paid.
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:55 AM PDT up reply actions
I think From the Rink showed only 0.2% have played till 44 … you may say 1 is enough for a precendent … the arbitrator may see it differently.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
he can be like oh well my family wants to be settled… i think its harder to prove that he cant play till hes 44 rather than he can
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, an ESPN poll last week showed that 79% of the people that responded agree that the NHL was right in rejecting the contract.
Really? You can go to any site (ESPN,TSN) and you’ll see the poll goes for the NHL. If Kovy was going to sign with their favorite team they would all vote for their team. You “King” fans would have been ecstatic if you signed Kovy for 17 years. But since he really didn’t care for you people when he flew there he said “My wife has never been to LA and we wanted to go.” Bahhhaaaa! Smack in the face. Tell me how Poni works out for.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions
No, I would not have been ecstatic
I would have assumed that Dean Lombardi had lost his mind and done the one thing I figured he would not do, and that is get into a bidding war for Kovalchuk.
Before you start stupidly casting aspersions, you might try reading the comments around here to get a read on what some actual Kings fans think. If you look at the comments I left here between July 1-July 15 or so, that is a point that I made more than once.
Yes, Kovalchuk made his choice.
And if the contract is void, what will he do then? Will he accept a thirteen year / 102MM deal? That’s a $7.85MM cap hit. Would LL even offer that much? That’s yet another roster player to sacrifice, and a million or two more he’ll have to pay Parise.
And the league has already said they believe penalties will be (or can be, at their discretion) assessed if the arbiter rules in the league’s favor. So, you know, don’t get too wound up in your certainty about Article 26 not being “in play.”
Also, don’t forget that the system arbiter who decides if this is a circumvention under Article 11 would be the same one under Article 26, so it’s likely they’re interpreting the whole investigation etc. phase of 26 to have been accomplished by the process of 11. In which case, immediate penalties.
But if not, a slightly drawn out phase leading to the same penalties.
Do you think Lou will want to sign Kovalchuk to a $2MM higher cap hit, knowing that at any minute he may be assessed a $5MM fine and cap penalty?
I said I think the arbiter’s ruling is roughly 50:50, could go either way.
If the league’s rejection is upheld, I think it’s 25:75 against, that Kovalchuk signs a new contract with New Jersey.
So that makes it about exactly 62.5% chance that he’s a devil for life.
Wait till this year.
I realize you believe that the Financial penalties are mandatory, but I still think the NHL is going to invoke the “MAY” in that section of the CBA and just fine the Devils draft picks instead of monetary penalties that will keep the Devils from signing Kovy without having to trade 2 players instead of 1.
Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
I'm willing to go with your interpretation of "may"
the league has, nonetheless, been rattling sabres regarding fines, so they’re at least willing to posture in that direction.
Wait till this year.
Is it safe to assume that there is an appeal process in place regardless of the content of the arbiter’s ruling?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:33 PM PDT up reply actions
So it would be the courts or nothing. Impressive pressure.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:45 PM PDT up reply actions
You’ll probably pass this off as bitterness or rivalry or some other “lalala can’t hear you” sort of thing, but most of the posts on BSH have agreed that it’s at least iffy, and very possibly a circumvention. I can only think of one poster on that board who definitely does not believe it’s circumvention.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
It is iffy
But it’s legal. Enough said. Other teams do it. Chicago did it. Vancouver did it. Scenario what if Lombardi signed Kopitar till he’s 43 or 42? Would you guys be crying over it and screaming at Dean “Please don’t do this!!!!! NOOOOO”?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
I’m a Flyers fan, so I wouldn’t care what Lombardi did. I do think the Pronger contract should have been looked at closer, though.
The difference to me comes in how many years are at the low salary. All of the other contracts have between 2 and 4 years at $1m or less of salary. Many of them are for players who (at least to some extent) are known for playing two-way, so they could feasibly have value at age 42 as third or fourth line or third pairing players. This is not blatantly manipulating numbers to drive down the cap hit; there is a potential legitimate reasoning behind the contract. Kovalchuk’s contract starts its decline at 37, which is nearly identical to the other contracts (they decline from 36 to 39), but it has 6 years at <$1m salary, which is as long as the entirety of some of the other loaded contracts, and takes him to an older age than any other contract of this type. Given that he’s already known for a lack of defense, he won’t be a fourth-line checking player, and there’s no legitimate reason I’m aware of for such a contract other than avoiding the cap hit. I don’t know how this will work out in the end, but the NHL does have a legitimate case to bring before the arbitrator, given the vague language in the CBA.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Many people did raise the issue that these contracts were questionable. And if you take a look at Behind the Net, it will show how the Kovy one goes far beyond even those ones.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
by Angy on Jul 28, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Behind the Net post is great at illustrating the differences.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 28, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
Some points.
1) It is?
2) I don’t disagree with the Devils’ “side.” I think they have an argument.
3) I disagree with whatever it is you’re trying to say over at ILWT. Which appears to be, the devils are right and everyone else is wrong and they’re wrong because they are biased against us.
4) Would this be the right place to point out that the JftC Kovalchuk posts are getting a lot of attention from CBSSports, Yahoo, PDaddy, NHL.com and the SBN mothership, etc. and that may be part of what’s driving some of the ILWT members up the wall? I mean, wouldn’t this be a good time for your fine blog to write something coherent on the topic?
ILWT is a much bigger blog than this one. JftC is only 6 months old. You get twice the traffic we do, and frequently a lot more than that. When you say **** about people and then stop them from being able to defend themselves, thousands of people read it and that may be all they read. It’s fundamentally unfair.
Wait till this year.
how is elesias a moron, the only moron here is you! considering you actually truly believe that the nhl is right on this rejection. NO WHERE in the cba is there a contract length maximum or anything that specifies what has happened here. This is bettman flexing his muscles and is not a shot at kovalchuk or the devils or the contract just to tell the entire nhl these contracts are wrong.
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Bettman can literally deny a contract on a whim if he hasn’t approved it yet. He doesn’t even have to give a reason.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
yeah he has the power to do it no doubt. but he has no reasoning or fact behind it which shows that they have literally 0 chance to win in arbitration
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:48 AM PDT up reply actions
What do I get if I can prove the CBA has (and in fact must have) an implicit limit on the length of contracts?
Hmm? What will you do then?
Wait till this year.
Well, you can't be banned from ILWT if THAT'S what you're angking for. You can just forget that honor...
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 12:02 PM PDT up reply actions
have you been to EVERY site?
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
and we are the only site saying the contract is crap???
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
the only site that says kovalchuk and the devils are wrong while the other contracts are fine
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh my goodness
Evidently you havent really been reading why THIS contract is being debated or challenged. It has nothing to do with the other contracts, which is why the NHL rejected it. Yes there are plenty of long term contracts that are suspect but none that are so heavily front loaded.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
oh my goodness you're an idiot oh my goodness
do you not understand that no matter how front loaded or anything the CBA doesn’t say anything against it. I mean is this english for you want to talk in another language? Every contract that has a decreasing salary is in technicality circumvention. That means either all the other contracts are at fault, or none.
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:46 AM PDT up reply actions
no crap dude…we are saying all of them are crap and they should have no place for it…
the cba is flawed, agreed. Ok there are always loopholes. So what. It is still crap!
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
loopholes arent crap it means that the people who wrote the cba wrote a crappy one. Since bettman didn’t reject all the other contracts he really has no reason to reject this one. again thats why arbitration goes our way
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Arbitration is like the supreme court, if the arbitrator makes a ruling, it could retroactively nullify all the other contracts too.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
I think they’d have to be heard individually, since they aren’t exactly identical contracts, and the arbitration language specifically says the arbitrator can’t modify the CBA
Honor is no substitute for victory.
yes, individual cases for each one
and I kind of doubt bettman goes down that road.
however, the fact that he has the power to instigate an investigation of any contract at any time nullifies the entire precedent argument. and as i’ve said, i think the investigations into hossa et al are still open…
Wait till this year.
Wow
How old are you? Sure lets start with name calling always a good way to make someone want to listen to your opinion. Well I guess I shouldnt expect any less.
I mean is this english for you want to talk in another language?
Actually, yeah I dont understand that.
True all contracts may be in that status technically but not one to this extent
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Dude?
I mean is this english for you want to talk in another language?
This is not a sentence.
Every contract that has a decreasing salary is in technicality circumvention.
No. The CBA in fact describes examples that are allowed.
Wait till this year.
thats absurd…and i dont believe you…
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
there are more than 28 blog sites on the internet…broaden your research…
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Guess i picked the wrong time to offer my OPINION! These Jersey guys sure do live up to their reputation…
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
you’re opinion claims that we are all idiots on the new jersey sb. how old you might i ask you can’t be older than 20
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
i think its pretty obvious to every one that if he signed the same contract with LA you guys would have loved it.
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:47 AM PDT up reply actions
Quisp would not have. He can link to posts that i’m too lazy to do if you don’t believe me.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
maybe he wouldn’t have but he wouldn’t be upset if you guys did sign him to this contract
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually
I think a majority of us would, as it screws the rest of our young core players in the future.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
how does a 6 mil cap hit for a superstar screw anything?
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions
interestingly, this was all covered at length and for the record
in my deleted comment over at ILWT. Let me try to recreate it for you:
I have been ambivalent about Kovalchuk from the start, due mostly to the fact that he doesn’t play defense, doesn’t do “systems,” when going gets tough he appears to try to do everything himself, with bad results (e.g. New Jersey playoffs), has never scored a meaningful goal in the NHL (e.g. a playoff series altering goal), has never done anything in international competition that makes me think if he were on a better team things would be different, his contract demands were/are absurd and unworkable, he has just passed through what is likely to be his peak year of scoring (since historically, that’s how it’s worked), and I think he has handled this entire free agent fiasco horrendously, as was his right of course. The very fact that New Jersey is in this position is due entirely to the fact that Kovalchuk never once budged off his demand of at minimum Ovechkin numbers for 10 years, which suggests that his sense of his worth is seriously out of whack with reality, not to mention the fact that it suggests that the driving force behind his decision making is not exactly “team” related, it’s bragging rights/$$/my salary is bigger than yours. The only way for any team to sign him under those conditions is to commit an absurd amount of money for an absurd length of time, none of which was desirable, from my point of view, as a Kings fan.
I think I then said something like, “I don’t give a **** if he plays in LA or not.” Can’t say for sure if that’s the quote. Ask your moderator.
Wait till this year.
It was the curse
John doesn’t allow ANY explicite language at ILWT. You would have been fine without the F***.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 2:26 PM PDT up reply actions
****ing hypocrites
Tanking is not in Lou’s vocabulary and it damn well never should be.
Damn through the legs
Damn I need to change my name if Kovy signs elsewhere
Again, thanks to that piece of shit Ed Snider moving the Phantoms
Who says a team like the Wild, who draft like shit anyway, won’t offer him something
Honor is no substitute for victory.
by The Dark on Jul 28, 2010 5:45 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was warned for the ****s. I was banned for the "unreasonable" and "intellectually dishonest"
but that’s okay. because now we have this thread.
Wait till this year.
no i said Elisias was an idiot and im starting to think you are one too.
Sorry pal but you will never guess my age because i am not a real person. I am just a computer program designed to periodically post potential human opinions.
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
does it even matter? you are so sure i am 20 an fixated on that as the reason for the things i say, but you dont want to talk about those things….
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
because you’re responses are basically comical
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
maybe im a comedian…
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Again
you realize that you embody everything wrong with ILWT right? All you are doing is posting fragments as fast as you can without actually writing anything that defends your arguments.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
by TricksterG on Jul 28, 2010 10:57 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1. This thread is giving the more rational ILWT members a really bad rap.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Yeah, kewlnsimpguy is really establishing a horrible reputation for ILWT commentors now. I would guess that Devils fans would prefer to be represented quite a bit more intelligently with more refined skills of articulation. I believe that the ILWT community deserves better than this display from kewlnsimpguy.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
(Note: This is a flame)
also interesting: He’s not banned yet.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Well no, he hasn't used the term "unreasonable" yet. Wait for it, wait for it...
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Unr***onable!
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
Good one! Wrong site though. If you want to be banned you’ll need to use that over on ILWT, I hear.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
im pretty sure there is not one rational writer in JFTW and you calling john and others homers is pretty freaking sad. Its funny how you guys are making childish accusations as oh em gee he is writing with fragments!. By writing that you are showing argument wise you have nothing
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually
you lashed out with a whole slew of random name calling and accustations. If I remember correctly
oh my goodness you’re an idiot oh my goodness
I said you are writing with fragments as it makes it damn near impossible to follow what you are trying to say. If you want to be taken seriously in your arguments, try writing in a clear and concise manner. Thats not an insult but a constructive critique.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
all i did was repeat what you said hahaha
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Really?
I called myself an idiot? Hmmm yeah that really doesnt make much sense.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
you said oh my goodness therefore i repeated what you said because you are oh so sure that you are right
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Right
I got that part, but I dont understand
making childish accusations as oh em gee he is writing with fragments!
What I said is actual fact, you are writing in fragments. You actually opened up your tirade by calling me an idiot. See the difference in what a childish accusation is?
For all the Devils fans on here, I really hope you correct this guy as he is making reasonable Devils fans seem nonexistent
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
rofl it is right but again it is a childish accusation saying that i am irrational because of fragments
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:25 AM PDT up reply actions
Huh
not once did I ever say you were irrational. You really have to stop with putting words in my mouth. I just said it was damn near impossible to follow due to way you were writing with fragments.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
right you only agreed to what quisp said in this entire blog which is nonsense
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
So
what does that exactly mean? This only reinforces the stigma of the Devils fans that anything against their belief is irrational. I agree with Quisp because what his argument brings is logic. What you fail to see is that Quisp along with many other believe that the argument can go either way. All Quisp and the majority of us did was argue the counterpoints to your points for why the contract is legal.
Apparently, that makes me irrational. Or an idiot. Or a moron. Correct?
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
AKA I am rubber and you are glue, what you say bounces of me and sticks to you. Right?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:20 AM PDT up reply actions
hmm i kinda like the sound of that when it comes out of your mouth…yeah…moron….
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Haha
now say it lower and slower..
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Me Quisp? Or the awesome Devils fan kewl?
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Haha
agreed. Its turning into chaos in here but I love the fact that regardless of what they say, they are ALLOWED to say it.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
have you missed the party? the contract IS legal
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:15 AM PDT up reply actions
he couldnt have argue the same because we never offered him the same contract…thats why he signed with NJ.
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
i have a feeling he would have signed in nj for the same money and contract over LA anyway
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:51 AM PDT up reply actions
really?? hey do us a favor and look up the word delusional, then come back and reread that statement.
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
hmm what team is consistently a contender… what team didnt win with the best player in the game hmmm
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:54 AM PDT up reply actions
The New Jersey Devils have been consistently better than the Kings for at least the last two decades.
That doesn’t make your comments suddenly coherent though.
Wait till this year.
this is what we are all saying dude…we went from talking about how and why and if the contract should or will be voided to now bringing up wins and losses?
As a kings fan i know we have never won anything. If thats all you have to say to us is what have you won…then im done talking to you.
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
No kidding
its the equivelent of saying “You suck, we have won way more!” well yeah no kidding, being a Kings fan dont you think we know this? Anyway, how did it get from contract issues to wins and losses? Im trying to follow but holy hell its like a train wreck.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
dont you guys want to WIN NOW then instead of still thinking about the future?
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
how am i bragging that weve won more. im saying if you were kovalchuk and you had both of those offers on the table and you wanted to win where would you go? its not a biased statement
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 10:59 AM PDT up reply actions
You
honestly believe if the Kings signed Kovalachuk, we would as you put it “WIN NOW”? Hes good but he aint that good.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
He ain't that GOOD?
He’s the second best russian sniper in the league behind Ovechkin. He’s better then anyone on your team.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:02 AM PDT up reply actions
Quite possibly
but do you think sacrificing our young core players to get him would have won us the cup this year as the comment above so proclaims? I dont and I think a lot of people dont.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Who would you have sacrificed?
Doughty is a RFA and Johnson could still be re-signed. You had 15 million in cap before the Poni signing.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:04 AM PDT up reply actions
sure but in two or three years why not?
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:16 AM PDT up reply actions
You really think Kovi is better than Doughty? Kovi is great, but come on.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
We'll see what comes out of Doughty
He only had one good year
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
We'll see what comes out of Doughty
He only had one good year
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:05 AM PDT up reply actions
Correct
One good year and one great year.
And still
young enough to keep getting better and better.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
We’ll see what comes out of Doughty. He only had one good year
And yet, Doughty’s already won twice as many playoff games and more Olympic gold medals than Kovalchuk :)
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:12 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
who at most adds 20 goals but gives back half that in poor defensive play
and of the remaining 10, those are mostly power play goals, which (1) we don’t need more of, really — we have a 5on5 problem and (2) since he plays all 2 minutes of the powerplay, at least some of those goals will be coming out of someone else’s column.
So, yeah, great, five more 5on5 goals. A lot of difference that would make. How many points separated the Kings and Devils last year? One? Might have been two. I forget.
Wait till this year.
Brodeur>Quick
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:01 AM PDT up reply actions
I would hope so
He only has a century in the league of experience. I like Brodeur alot, but lets not just say random things.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
well im pretty sure its obvious that quick will never quite be brodeur … but i dont see why he cant become an elite goaltender… I remember watching him against vancouver in the playoffs he truly lives up to his last name
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Given how Brodeur looked towards the end of last season, he could be anywhere from the top of the league to making Cristobal Huet look good. He is still among the top 5 ever when looking at his career, but age is finally catching up to him.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
what? how did he look bad? the entire team looked bad thats not his fault
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:18 AM PDT up reply actions
Given how Brodeur looked towards the end of last season, he could be anywhere from the top of the league to making Cristobal Huet look good. He is still among the top 5 ever when looking at his career, but age is finally catching up to him.
what? where does it say he looks bad?
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:22 AM PDT up reply actions
Well, to be honest, I thought he did look worse than usual towards the end of the season. He was committing early to the butterfly because he wasn’t dropping as quickly as usual, which occasionally left him out of position. If it was just fatigue, he’ll bounce back at least for the beginning of the season. If it’s his joints finally starting to stiffen, he probably won’t regain his form. If it was a minor injury (tweaked hip or some such), who knows?
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I think I first noticed it in the Carolina series two years ago. That tantrum was so contrived, so unlike the cool and unflappable Marty Brodeur I knew. I thought he might just be trying to fire up his team, but when the game seven-ending goals went in I began to suspect it was the beginning of the end for him. Nevertheless, at no point did you say he looked bad. Implied? Possibly, but not stated.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
we want to win next year and the year after and the year after that…the devils are old and HAVE to win now before the door closes…thats why we couldnt sign him, it would compromise our future.
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
Thats why we have really good prospects and Frazee looking for a roster spot in the next 2 years. But yeah once Marty retires were moving to Kansas City. OK
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:03 AM PDT up reply actions
I hope you like those prospects because you have the second-oldest team in the league.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
You realize thats mostly because of Rolston, Arnott, and Elias? All can still put up a lot of points. Except Rolston…..
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:10 AM PDT up reply actions
Zubrus is only 32 even though he plays like he’s 40.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
zubrus has the second hardest work ethic on the devils… under parise
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Did you even watch the playoffs of even highlights?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:38 AM PDT up reply actions
And Salvador, and Brodeur, and Hedberg(included for completeness), and Langenbrunner.
The devils are older than the Flames, who everyone makes fun of for being rediculously old.
(In other news MEDIAN AGE is far superior to mean age, capgeek. but i’ll go with what you give me.)
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
actually
Kovalchuk is the future for us. Him and Parise are leading the way after Brodeur retires, its the end of an era, but a begining of a new one
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:21 AM PDT up reply actions
Good luck having Kovalchuk as your future.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
Kovalchuk's contract is LEGAL
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:27 AM PDT up reply actions
Parise won't get Kovalchuk money and he'll stay here. He knows we have Android here for 6 and Kovy for 17 years. And hes the captain.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
IF you get Kovalchuk I feel Parise will be very hard to extend, even for the amazing Lou.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:37 AM PDT up reply actions
Because, of course, the arbitrator who hasn’t even been selected yet has already issued his judgment, which only Devils fans have been allowed to see.
It is entirely possible that his contract will, in fact, be upheld by the arbitrator. It is also possible it will not. A wall of arrogance from fans will not change the outcome of the case one way or the other, but it will engender a long, simmering hatred from other fanbases.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Do you guys even read your own comments?
THIS CONTRACT IS LEGAL. They will rule for the NHLPA and the Devils.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
You don’t understand arbitration then.
Here’s what happens:
Three lawyers get together in a room. Two of them yell at each other for two hours. (they have to take turns obviously.) The third lawyer then decides who is more right within 48 hours.
This is the exact process.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
Spoken from a true Kings fan
Gretzky made you delusional.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions
Um… yea… Ubiquitous is a Kings fan. Despite the fact he’s a SABRES fan.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ahh yeah sorry
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:34 AM PDT up reply actions
Hey, let's not confuse the rhetoric with facts here! I mean, c'mon!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:40 AM PDT up reply actions
Zing!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
lol hes clearly the best of all time. But even with him and robitalle 0 times? jeez
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
lol hes clearly the best of all time. But even with him and robitalle 0 times? jeez
*Looks at screen name, looks around, slowly exits
by RudyKelly on Jul 28, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
We aren't either
But he didn’t do it for you guys.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
Sometimes there are witnesses. And the lawyers usually don’t yell. Usually.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Lawyers NEVER yell!
They have been known, however, to discuss matters at volume.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:39 AM PDT up reply actions
I never thought I’d agree with a Sabres fan so much.
http://www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Jul 28, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions
I also find it ironic that in this case the NHL is representing the players interests while the NHLPA is representing the Devils.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
I’m not sure I’d even put it that way. I look at it as the NHL representing the league’s interests, in the parity generated by the salary cap (or at least the parity that the salary cap attempts to generate), while the NHLPA is representing both the Devils and Kovalchuk, as the Devils want Kovy and Kovy just wants cash before he leaves the NHL (and yes, I’m being cynical, but I don’t believe he intends to play out the entire contract).
Honor is no substitute for victory.
And they say politics makes for strange bedfellows…
Then again, they also say appearnces can be deceiving…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
I might go to the team that's not the second oldest in the league (and a hair from the first)
whose Hall of Fame goalie is within a couple years of retirement, at which point… 15 years left, right?
Wait till this year.
you'd like that wouldn't you?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:19 AM PDT up reply actions
Unlike
elsewhere this site actually lets the debate roil along.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
It has – and it was certainly provoked to a new level by this fanshot. Sure would be nice if Quisp would be allowed to speak out against the derogatory comments over there about him, but since he disagrees against John Fisher, that will never be allowed to happen.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:24 AM PDT up reply actions
A fanshot on ILWT posted by kewlnsimpguy called “Somebody’s Bitter” linking to this article at JFTC and saying that the author is a 13 year old and that the author and commentors are idiots. Tastefully and thankfully, the fanshot was deleted by Kevin of the ILWT staff.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 1:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Great, someone started a blog war?
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:26 AM PDT reply actions
Quisp......
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions
I will admit Quisp started a blog war. Though Quisp will claim banning him was the first attack, which i tend to agree with.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
It’s also stupid.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:30 AM PDT up reply actions
he made stupid comments on there some made sense others .. No
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Or is it "Quif"?????
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:27 AM PDT reply actions
Wow! What an amazing show of quick wit and retort. Dazzling!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:29 AM PDT up reply actions
Golf Clap
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
You guys golf clap professionally since that down time for like 9 years of not making the playoffs. Until last year.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions
Oooo
Zing! Now this just fun!
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Why? Isn’t this the EXACT effect you hoped for when you posted this fanshot?
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:35 AM PDT up reply actions
HEY NO TROLLING!!!!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:36 AM PDT up reply actions
which has now been deleted apparently.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
I deleted it because it was pointless.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:42 AM PDT up reply actions
It would just spark this
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
i was just mad at the time because they made john look bad
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:43 AM PDT up reply actions
Everyone on SBN knows hes a good guy.
Quisp just made stupid comments ignoring the CBA itself.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions
uh … some of us did read Quisp’s comments before they were deleted and saw no harm in them … I think someone over on ILWT has a bit of a control issue … :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Yeah I think it was. It wasn’t insulting. I didn’t call anyone a name – as you have been doing thru-out. I have control issues myself, so can recognize it in others. :)
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
right im the only one that has been name calling my bad. rofl you guys are really partially blind
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
Didn I imply others haven’t? You commented on my comment and I replied back on yours.
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Frustrating
isnt Angy?
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Duh
Isnt it
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Uh
yeah talking to Angy, so talking to one another yes.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Yeah! As I said over there before, they only want to see the facts as they see them. ugh!
Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin
Its
literally like hammering your head against a brick wall. Just absolutely unyielding in their beliefs. I guess you have to admire them for their staunch loyalty an stubborness, but jeez.
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Zing!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
John and Quisp will settle this like adults. Otherwise i’d assume Travis Hughes or some of the SBN overlords would have to settle this.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:47 AM PDT up reply actions
I'd like to see that
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
YES lol
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
An arbiter ruling on the matter …
Will be be able to levy a fine?
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 28, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Kings vs Devils Stanley Cup of Blogs!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
This is proclamation comes from a man who thinks the Kovy deal is not stretching the realms of absurdity
bread. butter. cheese. VICTORY!
by Prometheus74 on Jul 28, 2010 12:18 PM PDT up reply actions
OMG! *****Travis Hughes*****!!
/all bow down in reverance…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions
I prefer the scenario of Travis reinstating MarioD and then have him act as judge. The entertainment value would be off the charts.
"You ever use smelling salts, every time you type a bad blog?" Brooks Laich
by CP2Devil on Jul 28, 2010 12:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
That would be very interesting CP2
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 12:24 PM PDT up reply actions
Understanded and appreciated Kevin. It should be aknowledged that kewlnsimpguy posted a fanshot of there called “Someone’s Bitter” insulting Quisp and enouraging this flame war. I don’t understand why kewlnsimpguy would later try to claim;
yeah…not my work
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions
because im not the one that erased it? fool
by kewlnsimpguy on Jul 28, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
DBB, I just want this crap to end. Even then, that Fanshot wasn’t news or anything interesting.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:48 AM PDT up reply actions
Roger that. Thanks for your help here, Kevin.
The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jul 28, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
You can't erase your own fanshots.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:49 AM PDT up reply actions
Reply to "blue balls"
And can we get this straightened out?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions
I got it!
We just get Kovalchuk and LeBron off the planet!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:52 AM PDT up reply actions
Oh, and while we’re at it, can we get rid of Justin Bieber and Miley Cyrus too?
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Sure anyone else you want to recycle?
Lindsey Lohan anybody?
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:56 AM PDT up reply actions
That would officially be the best day ever.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
It would be a national holiday.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 12:04 PM PDT up reply actions
Yes you can. It even asks “Are you sure?” before it deletes them.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
Welcome to the party
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions
RPK/kewinsp-This doesn’t help anything. Take the high road and don’t even bother responding anymore. Elias said his piece and defended himself. This back and forth just gets silly and petty.
by Tom Stivali on Jul 28, 2010 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions
Its just fun and passes time. I guess
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
elias (sp?) actually managed to calm down and the dialogue became remarkably civil for awhile there
we now long for those great days…
Wait till this year.
Well this is fun guys.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:37 AM PDT reply actions
Wrong site kewl lol
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:55 AM PDT reply actions
Mostly all main ILWT comment contributors are here.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Except John...
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
O yeahh
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:57 AM PDT up reply actions
Actually, just users. Tom posted one comment, and Matt, John and Tibbs haven’t posted any comments.
In Lou We Trust: The system hates us, man.
"Pfft, Wii’s where it’s at. *Swings toy plastic racquet, separates shoulder"- RudyKelly
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jul 28, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions
Comment guys. Not story guys.
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 11:59 AM PDT up reply actions
Yeah and my last comment and suggestion, will be to let this go. Elias was called out, he responded. Let’s let it end.
by Tom Stivali on Jul 28, 2010 12:00 PM PDT up reply actions
Ban them!
Wait…no THAT won’t work…I know…
WORK TO GET QUISP REINSTATED AT ILWT!
That oughta do it.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 12:05 PM PDT up reply actions
We'll see you in court!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 12:08 PM PDT up reply actions
Its addicting!!!
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 12:02 PM PDT reply actions
I find this arguing hilarious. Is the contract ridiculous, um yea. But who really thinks Lou Lamoriello would submit a contract that doesn’t follow the CBA rules. So all of you can continue to try and pick apart the CBA but I think Lou and Co. understand it more than all of you. If they think it’s legal, it’s legal. Have fun wasting your time though I shall continue to sit back and enjoy this.
Salutations....
Mathew Barnaby to Lyle Odelein: "Cornelius, as we like to call him, gets under your skin. Planet of the Apes. Look at him. Seriously. He looks like Cornelious."
Odelein to Barnaby: "He should take a look at his wife. She's God-awful to look at."
by RolliePollieKovy on Jul 28, 2010 12:11 PM PDT up reply actions
And
what if your belief is wrong? Thats been the whole point. To see the other side of the argument. No one here knows or says its going to go one way or the other, just that it could go either way. A lot of people seem to have a problem with that or seem to know thats its going to go in your favor. Hell if it does awesome, you got him but to speak as a matter of fact just isnt factual. We here at JFTC like to look at both sides.
Playing Devils advocate if you will…
Anyone who lives within their means suffers from a lack of imagination.-Oscar Wilde
I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.
Of course, Lou knows his business
But that’s why I was so surprised that the Devils offered so much. One reason I have always respected and admired Lou as a GM is that he seems to understand better than most of his peers the value of depth and not relying too much on one player to make your team. He got a decent deal on Kovalchuk as a rental and didn’t have to pay the whole contract, so I can understand this. But this UFA contract is unprecedented in scope, if not in type. It commits a lot of resources over a long period of time to just one guy. I didn’t think he would do that… and y’know what? Neither did Dean Lombardi, who knows Lou better than anyone reading this blog right now.
Furthermore, I read Lou’s quoted comments on the signing, and he didn’t exactly sound like a GM who was proud and happy to have secured the future of his team. Didn’t he say pretty much that it wasn’t his idea, and that the owner was the driving force behind signing Kovalchuk to this particular contract? I think that undercuts the notion that Lou was perfectly in control of the situation.
I’ll say it again: If I was a Devils’ fan, I would almost be hoping for this contract to be invalidated, and if not for the specter of penalties from the league, I’d be hoping that it would be invalidated. It’s a poisoned chalice for the Devils.
Fuck yeah Quisp
that is what i’m talking about. you make excellent points and i love the work you do here
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
Late to this discussion, but my $.02 anyway
A couple of issues I’ve seen pop up in various spots on the interwebs regarding the Kovy/NJD situation:
Odds
There have been 3 skaters and 3 goalies who played at the age of 44. As there have been roughly 6500 people that have played in the NHL, we’re looking at about 9 in 10,000 who have played at age 44.
Proof
The general response from NJD supporters has tended to run along the lines of, “it’s only circumvention if Kovy doesn’t intend to play until 44, or he does not actually play until 44; as you can prove neither, the contract is, ipso facto, valid.” They are right that it is awfully difficult to prove a negative. However, intent can be inferred based on circumstance, and extremely long odds (as above) can equal impossibility, even in the context of a criminal trial, with its higher burden of proof. Which brings me to the second point: the actual standard for arbitration is “preponderance of the evidence”; meaning that the question becomes, on balance, is it more likely than not likely that the structure of the contract is intended to circumvent the CBA? The point being that the NHL does not, in fact, have to “prove” anything; they only have to show that it’s more likely than not likely that circumvention has occurred.
Precendent
Or it’s somewhat comical variant “PRECEDENCE”. The general theory is that because Hossa and Pronger have stood, Kovy’s must stand – that the NHL has waived its right to challenge the Kovy contract. This ignores the rather glaring point that the first two are not identical to the third one; and that the league reportedly notified the GMs that Hossa and Pronger were at the edge of how far the league is willing to allow these things to go. Kovy’s contract is more extreme on a couple of vectors. It has a longer “tail” (which lowers the cap hit to a larger degree) and it falls more precipitously from high earning years to the tail. In fact, if any precedent was established, it’s that the league has put the teams on notice that tails longer than Hossa’s were going to get dinged.
Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?
I’m pretty sure the NHL kept the “investigations” of Hossa’s and Pronger’s contracts (and I think Luongo’s too) open so they could counter that argument that they’ve allowed those contracts to stand.
It costs nothing to “keep an investigation open” and it creates options. No-cost options: there’s a concept a businessman can get behind.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 3:39 PM PDT up reply actions
I find it hard to believe Gary Bettman used that reasoning. It makes sense, he does not.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 28, 2010 6:58 PM PDT up reply actions
On the other hand, I get the feeling that NOTHING comes out of that building on Avenue of the Americas if GB hasn’t okayed it.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:33 PM PDT up reply actions
See, at the end there...not quite as hideous as anticipated
A few extremely long runs of silliness, but on the whole people more or less chilled out and maybe got it out of their systems. People said **** they didn’t mean and called people names which is not nice (and is also not really a good debating tool — this is directed at everyone, including me) and some people just typed and hit publish in a stream without thinking, which is what happens.
I hope the ILWT folks at least can see at least a faint glimmer of a possibility that my point-of-view is not malevolence directed at Devils’ fans. The part I took personally was not the original name-calling in the ILWT comments (which is how we met in the first place). but the fact that I was prevented from responding to a comment which ridiculed me for not responding. This was fundamentally unfair, unproductive, and, as this little exercise has demonstrated, completely unnecessary.
However, I am not proud of the combined lost wages this thread represents.
Wait till this year.
I’ve found that name-calling nullifies your entire arguement automatically. Everyone should remember this.
On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!
by Ubiquitous on Jul 28, 2010 1:37 PM PDT up reply actions 2 recs
Is saying someone is acting like an idiot calling them an idiot?
is yes, then i am guilty, but ya know what some of those guys were saying some thing that defied reason.
I think there was an opportunity for everyone to have a real discussion, but then it took a swing for the worse and got out of hand. They tried to bring us down to their level, but i think we recognized it and came to our senses.
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
it was out of hand, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't
It’s a fine demonstration of the personalities of the people involved, all the way around. Coming to one’s senses is always a good outcome, no matter whose senses they are.
Wait till this year.
Damn, you’re more banned than Rudy Kelly? Nicely done, Quisp.
"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Rudy doesn’t have the balls to type * in the context of a swear like quisp :p
by Booby_McNipples on Jul 28, 2010 2:47 PM PDT up reply actions
Why’d you get banned?
Denis Gauthier sucks at hockey... and life.
by Kevin Y on Jul 28, 2010 2:38 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
Quisp is clearly not banning enough commenters. :)
"Ridin’ The Meat Train & Dreaming of Jack’s Johnson All Summer Long!"
http://www.battleofcali.com/
Quisp is clearly not banningenoughany commenters. :)
As far as I know.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:30 PM PDT up reply actions
I missed quite a thread
Then again, I’m kinda glad I didn’t get a chance to go MCC on the trolls…
If the eyes are the windows to the soul, then these sunglasses are the curtains telling you to keep the fuck out!!!
No time like the present.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 5:47 PM PDT up reply actions
I think I'll just stay classy
I mean, it’s done, Quisp got banned, do they really feel the need to become members of JFTC just to continue the damn argument?
If the eyes are the windows to the soul, then these sunglasses are the curtains telling you to keep the fuck out!!!
by angelofdeath on Jul 28, 2010 5:50 PM PDT up reply actions
You know that post could be construed as entering the discussion….just saying….
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 6:14 PM PDT up reply actions
Ok I'll stop now...
:)
If the eyes are the windows to the soul, then these sunglasses are the curtains telling you to keep the fuck out!!!
by angelofdeath on Jul 28, 2010 6:19 PM PDT up reply actions
As a diehard Flyers fan, I’ve got to say that the way you Kings folks have handled this, You’ve earned my respect. Well done.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 28, 2010 6:35 PM PDT reply actions
Since you're a Flyer fan, I'll go ahead and ask
Matt Walker and a 4th? Really?
If the eyes are the windows to the soul, then these sunglasses are the curtains telling you to keep the fuck out!!!
by angelofdeath on Jul 28, 2010 6:48 PM PDT up reply actions
Since you’re a Kings fan. You couldn’t have offered something better that we would have taken? Really?
Poni for 3 instead of Gags for 5? Really?
/drains bottle of Scotch.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 28, 2010 7:00 PM PDT up reply actions
I seriously doubt we couldn't have bettered that offer
Maybe DL didn’t want Gagne on the DL…
If the eyes are the windows to the soul, then these sunglasses are the curtains telling you to keep the fuck out!!!
by angelofdeath on Jul 28, 2010 7:03 PM PDT up reply actions
Didn't Gagne had the right to limit the teams to which he could be traded?
Any word on whether he might have nixed going to the Kings?
Otherwise… you have a good point, sir. Touche.
yeah I think gagne for some reason preferred tampa. yzerman is cool. some good young players. better travel. he is getting up there in years.
it makes sense I guess.
Wait till this year.
Are we moving past blaming Homer, and going on to blaming teams that should have offered him something better than MW and a 4th?
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
You'd rather have Sather? Or Sutter? Boy have I got a Jokinen for you!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:36 PM PDT up reply actions
When you can only name two GM’s that are worse than Homer (there are probably like, 2 more), it’s not exactly a ringing endorsement for the guy.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
You could do worse…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:48 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
He’s holding a hockey stick, so he must know about hockey. Right?
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Sure, of course, absolutely…now about that investment portfolio…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 8:50 PM PDT up reply actions
I can only assume you’re carrying bags of money.
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
See, the way it works is: you give me bags of money and I give you worthless valuable stocks and bonds. Monster stocks and bonds!
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 9:29 PM PDT up reply actions
I was apprehensive, but your use of the strike-through has put me at ease
Backing Backlund for 2010-2011
Mourning Gagne forever.
Good, good….now step into my office and we’ll talk. I know it’s a little cramped in here but the waist to ceiling glass gives us a marvelous view and the atmosphere is terrific. Ooops — duck! Wow, that was close. No worries though, it only beaned the camera guy. I never liked him anyway. Too animated. Now, about those investments…
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 10:27 PM PDT up reply actions
Since I'm a Kings fan I'll go ahead and ask: Poni???
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:35 PM PDT up reply actions
Ponikarovsky.
@ Todd, no still hatin Homer. Just sayin…. Hard to believe nobody else would top it.
Formerly... "You don't have to be sweet, to be good"
by Ed Van Chimp on Jul 28, 2010 7:40 PM PDT up reply actions
Matt Walker and a 4th? Really?
ing Homer. I’ve yet to run across a single fan who liked that trade. If you look at the two trades we ended up doing with Stevie Y, we got Meszaros, Walker, and a 2011 4th for Gagne and a 2012 2nd. Ugh. Add that to how much we’re paying Leighton…at least the O’Donnell contract makes sense.
Out of curiosity, what would you have been willing to give up for Gagne? I know we were dreaming of Bernier or Quick, but that wasn’t really realistic. Keeping in mind that we didn’t really want to take NHL salary back (since the goal was to clear cap space), what would you have considered a fair package for Gags?
Honor is no substitute for victory.
I’m guessing you’re over 40, right? So you remember how it used to be. And from your posts I know you’re knowledgeable (no, I’m not blowing smoke, I read them). I think that maybe like me you’re still hoping for trades to make sense hockey-wise. I can’t see Lombardi giving up much for Gagne.
I think it was the wrong move for Lombardi to pick up Poni. Could be wrong, hope I’m wrong. But like Frolov, I’m betting he’ll be gone next July1st and it won’t be by trade or for lack of trying to move him. I wouldn’t have been against taking a chance on Gagne, but not for much. At least for Poni there are no players or picks going out, it’s for ~$2 million less (still too much at $3 million and change I think) and there’s less perceived injury risk. But I’d rather have Gagne any day of the week. Wild and reckless gambler with other people’s money, me.
If there was talk between the Flyers and the Kings for Gagne, I doubt what Lombardi was offering would have been a whole lot more palatable to you. Yzerman is taking a chance on Gagne. He may not be the most experienced GM — in fact I guess he’s the least — but he’s pretty sharp and he’s smart enough to listen to the opinions of the best (like Holland and Develano and Nill). If he was offering what you got for Gagne I think there probably wasn’t any more available elsewhere. I certainly don’t think Yzerman would be so stupid as to make an enemy in Holmgren and at the same time put all the other GMs (and hands-on owners for that matter) on the alert. (Might also be some payback coming your way that isn’t part of what was sent up to Gary for approval.) There’d be no percentage in that and if Yzerman is a smart as he seems to be he’s smart enough to know that. Smart strategists build bridges, they don’t burn them and they build for the long haul.
The list of landing zones for Gagne was pretty small too, wasn’t it? I don’t know for sure which teams were on it other than TB and LA. Wasn’t there Toronto too? And Ottawa? That limits things too.
Whether the timing of the deal was off or not is hard to tell: to me, everything seems off this year and it all seems to be because of cap issues.
That doesn’t really answer your question very well other than to say: not much. At least it says why I think so though.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 9:27 PM PDT up reply actions
I'd agree: Not that much
While Walker and a mid-round pick doesn’t seem like a great return, I’d have to agree with JHF. Especially considering that Philly was not going to take any salary in return — not that the Kings have any Preissing-like junk contracts to unload anyway right now.
Lombardi would not have offered a top-tier prospect for a 1-year player and a big-ish cap hit. So no Bernier, no Hickey, no Voynov, no Moeller, no Schenn. Especially considering how jealously he hoards his prospects. I dunno… maybe Cliche or Lewis or Martinez or Campbell and a pick?
I’m actually in my upper 20s, but I’ll take over 40 as a compliment ;)
My background’s in economics, so I understand that any deal needs to make sense to both parties. Looking at Doug’s suggestions:
I’d be wary about Cliche. He makes Gagne look like an iron man with his injury record.
Of the others, I’d prefer Lewis. The Flyers have a fair number of decent blue-line prospects (Marshall, Bourdon, Lehtivuori, Bertilsson), but not much up the middle for the future. We’re deep there currently, but will need to replenish if/when we lose Carter and/or Briere (I consider Richards and Giroux the two with the most long-term value). Kalinski will probably never be more than a third-liner, and our other prospects at that position are 21 (Pither) and 20 (Labrecque), both of whom have significant holes in their game.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
That was a compliment — especially for a guy (?) in his late twenties. Yeah, I’d take that too!
I had a read over at BSH after I was looking at your posts. You guys are…well, not rabid fans exactly…er…but more than dedicated, yes…certainly knowledgeable in many cases…so…to sum up: I think I’m glad I didn’t post the above over there. Someone might’ve thought I was sorta saying Holmgren maybe shouldn’t be lynched, boiled in oil, tarred and feathered and run out of town on a rail! ;)
Seriously though, it’s great to see such interest with just a few days left in July. I was fortunate to see a few games in the Spectrum in the good old days and the atmosphere there then pretty much is carried on over at BSH.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 29, 2010 6:57 AM PDT up reply actions
I think we eventually came to pretty much the same conclusion. Gags has been a fan favorite for years, and there was a lot of sentimental value getting attached to him. We were…um…peeved that the Gagne trade became necessary due to what is perceived by some as Holmgren’s mismanagement of the cap. He could still redeem himself, but the interim grade isn’t that high.
Since I don’t currently live in Philadelphia, I actually haven’t seen a Flyers game in person for some years, but hockey’s still my favorite sport to watch. In my case, and I think a few others, we want to understand more about hockey, rather than just understanding our team. The CBA fascinated me even before the Kovy saga, since the whole RFA system and waivers are big things that there are misconceptions about, and understanding how to use those to your advantage can make a team a lot better.
And yes, I’m a guy. The internet does make determining that a little more difficult than face-to-face conversation.
Honor is no substitute for victory.
Breathtaking. A triple pun in eight words.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 28, 2010 7:37 PM PDT up reply actions
To the multiple comments questioning the Gagne trade, I say this; Think of it less of trading away Gagne to the Lightning, but more of a 3 way trade with Free Agency.
We here in Philadelphia are split on the issue, but to me, it’s quite clear. I’d trade away Gagne to secure our place as the #1 defense in the league, Acquire Zherdev (especially under Lavvy), and pick up an undisputed heavyweight fighter, any day of the week.
We had no chance to secure a franchise goalie in the off-season, so we did as well as we could. I’d have much rather you folks had picked up Gagne, to be sure. I still have nightmares of Fedetenko racking up goals on us in the playoffs after we traded him away, but it seems it wasn’t to be.
by BroadStreetBully on Jul 29, 2010 2:56 AM PDT reply actions
I don’t question the Gagne trade at all. (see my reply to Dark ^)
As I said to Dark, I wouldn’t post this over there, but I don’t think Holmgren’s done such a terrible job. I’ve also got a hunch it’s not over trade/addition/deal-wise for the Flyers.
You guys are looking OK to me. I can understand how the frustration of being oh-so-close is hard to take and needs an outlet. At least there were no illegal stick calls. ;)
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 29, 2010 7:03 AM PDT up reply actions
Did not. Did too. Did not. Did too. No it didn't. Yes it did. No. Yes. No. Yes.
Sometimes I don’t speak right. But then I know what I’m talking about. And of that didn;t do it, then-“I know you’re working for the CIA. They wouldn’t have you in the Mau-Mau yeah”
End Corporate Personhood.
How about instead of us all from ILWT as well you guys on JFTC arguing about the contract lets sit back and see what the Arbitrator decides. We can argue all day yes but that won’t change what happens. I personally don’t like the rejection not just cause i’m a Devils fans but because I think if league wins they set a bad precedent. Who knows what contract they target next maybe even one of your own.
I personally think based on what i have read of the CBA unless in the contract or some how implied Kovalchuk won’t play the last few years they have no basis for the rejection to hold up. I always become quite skeptical when the league of any sport starts getting involved where there is nothing for them to involve themselves in. I also think if you asked most players Kings included they would agree there is no basis for the rejection as it stands now.
if sports fans used the standard of whether or not "it will change what happens" if they do anything,
they would never do anything.
Personally, I don’t base my opinions, or my choice of topic, on what Kings players think.
Also, we’re not having an argument.
Wait till this year.
Personally, I don’t base my opinions, or my choice of topic, on what Kings players think.
Goodness, sir; think of what your saying! Do you mean to say that you are expressing your opinions on your choice of topics based solely on what you think?
For pity’s sake — what do you think this is? A blog? Your blog? Your hockey blog?
Why that’s positively…..revolutionary.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 31, 2010 3:10 PM PDT up reply actions
A bad precedent??
How would it be a bad precedent for the league to draw a line in the sand against contracts that obviously exploit a loophole that undermines the salary cap that they negotiated with the players for the owners’ own benefit? I thought the line should have been drawn much earlier, with the Hossa contract and the Luongo contract. But the league was too feckless and let them off with nothing more than, “We’re keeping our eye on you,” and here we are. They have to do something, sometime, somewhere along the line, otherwise there’s not much point to having a salary cap in the first place — something the NHLPA will no doubt point out during the next round of CBA negotiations.
My interest in this really has much less to do with the Kings than you assume. I’m uncomfortable with the fact that Lombardi offered 13-15 years/$80 mil, and I was surprised that he used the front-loading loophole to that extent. And he was clearly surprised that his old friend Lamoriello used it to an even greater extent.
And when it comes to a league-wide NHLPA v. NHL issue like this, I don’t give a damn what the Kings players think any more than I care what the players on other teams think. Precisely because team allegiance is not the major factor in my interest in this case.
I accept that Kovalchuk will not be a King, no matter how this case turns out. That ship has already sailed, as far as the Kings are concerned. When they signed Ponikarovksy, they did indeed move on to Plan C, and there’s no going back. But I am still very much interested in whether or not the league will be able to defend the salary cap, now that they have at last decided to get serious about it. And I am curious to see what happens to Kovalchuk if the contract is finally nullified as an academic issue, because I think his leverage will fall dramatically; I want to know if I have analyzed the situation correctly.
Rather, I think it is all of the swamp-dwelling trolls from ILWT who came over here and tracked dogshit onto the carpet who are projecting their own partisan blindness onto us. And being pretty damned rude about it, too.
i don't think they're trolls though. they're blog tourists. and that's totally fine.
I agree about the projection part, 100%.
I also think it’s absurd that we should stop talking about it because they have heard enough. Frankly, I would be writing about it even if “we” thought we had heard enough.
Wait till this year.
Rather, I think it is all of the swamp-dwelling trolls from ILWT who came over here and tracked dogshit onto the carpet who are projecting their own partisan blindness onto us. And being pretty damned rude about it, too.
That is absolutely classic, and priceless. Hear, Hear.
End Corporate Personhood.
And nary a * to be seen.
He likes to keep his fire engine clean
It's a clean machine
by Joe Hockey Fan on Jul 31, 2010 3:04 PM PDT up reply actions
I'm done with this Kovadonnachuk shit!!!
I will say this….I can see what they’re talking about on the Whole circumventing/non-circumventing, but when the they started with the name calling, that’s when they showed how classless they are. I’m not saying all of them, but the ones who typed them. Really, was all that called for? NO, OF COURSE NOT!!! They only showed how immature some of them are. I also loss respect for some of those so-call editors. Not the one who banned Quisp, but the ones who put their two-cents on this post. Not only did they NOT try to stop the negativity, but basically incouraged the mindless lemmings & CHEERED THEM!!! ILWT should change their names to “In Conspiracies we Embrace.”
Chock it up to temporary fan madness
probably going to get worse before it gets better this week.
Wait till this year.
Specially, if the Arbitrator rules in favor for the league.
Which may or may not happen. We’ll just have to wait and see.
It will be another crazy week...
Doesn’t matter which way the decision goes. It will either be complete outcry from the NJ fans or a bunch of “I told you so’s”.
I expect another blog skirmish.
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