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The League's Case

According to infallible Twitter, the next chapter in the serial blockbuster known as Kovalchuk Month begins tomorrow, with day one of the hearing. There has obviously been a lot of chatter in the Kovalchukosphere about the NHLPA's supposedly slam dunk case, Bettman's vendetta against the Devils, the league not having a leg to stand on, the groundwork being laid for CONSPIRACY if the league should prevail, and even Brian Burke conceding, essentially, that these kinds of deals are bogus and bad for the league but basically allowed by the CBA.

I'm not so sure they are allowed, as I said in a previous post.

[Burke] assumes that the only way to prove circumvention is to demonstrate that this one guy (Kovalchuk) will retire before he gets to the end of his contract. Obviously, one can't prove that Kovalchuk will not play till he's 44 anymore than one can prove Kovalchuk is not immortal. Yet the argument, "we just don't know if he's immortal, we will have to wait and see what happens," as the basis of an employment contract that extends to the end of time, is incontrovertibly stupid. And we wouldn't have to wait till the end of time (or his death) to prove it either.

I've laid out my argument in bits and pieces over several posts, but to celebrate Arbitration Eve, I decided to boil it all down to one short post. I failed to make it short. I was going to chop it up into several postlets, but with the actual hearing tomorrow, that ship has sailed, too. 

As I have said many times, I have no idea who will prevail in this hearing. It's a coin toss. If I had to guess, I would give the slightest edge to the league. My point all along has always been, no matter the outcome, I believe the league has a case. Who knows if the league would even agree with me that this is the case they should make. For all I know it would be one of those "stay off my side" situations.

Star-divide

The Implicit Limit on Term

  • The CBA does not explicitly limit the term of an SPC. One might reason that the absence of an explicit limit allows any length at all, 10 years, 17 years, 20, 50, 100, 100,000 years. The CBA doesn't explicitly prohibit any of those terms.
  • There are two possible interpretations of the fact that there is no explicit limit on term. (1) there is no limit, period; (2) there is an implicit limit.
  • Let's assume "no explicit limit" means "no limit." If there is no limit, that means any number from one to infinity is allowed.
  • We have seen that adding so-called "tails" to contracts lowers the cap hit, because the cheap years at the end bring the average down. This, of course, is allowed by the CBA.
  • So let's assume "no limit to term" is a legitimate loophole and we can exploit it to our heart's content.
  • I want to pay Bob Smith $10MM a year for ten years. But I can't afford the cap hit. So I structure the deal in this way: $10MM per year for each of the first ten years, then $5MM for one year (per the 100% rule), then $550K for the next 99,989 years.
  • It doesn't matter if it's obvious beyond the shadow of any doubt that the player will be dead for most of his contract. The player intends to live forever, and I don't know (nobody knows) that won't happen. If there's even a 0.0000000000001% chance of that happening, we can't rule it out.
  • So, $55,098,950,000 ($55.1 billion) over 100,000 years. Cap hit: $551K. That's a great cap hit! I must be a terrific GM.
  • And, since every contract is entitled to the 100,000 year term, when Bob's brother Bill wants a new contract, I can apply that to Bill's salary too.
  • But I don't want to pay Bill what I pay Bob (Bill is a third-pairing defenseman with a history of concussions). I want to pay him $900K for five years, which is about as long as I think he can play, really.
  • So, the deal I offer him is structured like this, $900K for five years, followed by 99,995 years at $550K. That's (calculator...), a cap hit of $550,017.50.
  • Bob retires after ten years, gets $100MM, and has a cap hit of $550,989.50. Bill retires after five years, gets $4.5MM, and has a cap hit of $550,017.50.
  • Difference in salary: $95,500,000. Difference in cap hit: $972. I could of course have made it a million year contract and reduced the difference to a fraction of a penny.
  • Soon, everyone will have one of these contracts (at least until the loophole is closed in the next CBA). No matter what a player really makes, his cap hit will be more or less indistinguishable from the league minimum salary for that year. Fortunately, ELCs will have much higher cap hits (since the CBA limits the lengths of those contracts), so that might help teams get to the cap floor (but only if they're all due significant multi-million dollar bonuses and, ultimately, only if they actually pay out).
  • A system in which every player has the same cap hit regardless of salary would have the effect of catastrophically undermining the salary cap system, and anything that has the effect of undermining Article 50, even a teensy amount, is explicitly defined as a circumvention of the CBA.
  • Anything that causes a catastrophic failure of the CBA is a circumvention of the CBA. :)
  • Since assuming "no limit" leads to a circumvention of the CBA, we are left with "implicit limit."
  • We have established there is a line somewhere. We just don't know where it is yet.

Where is the Line?

  • Article 50 sets the players' share of revenues at a fixed number relative to total revenue. The cap floor and ceiling are also fixed in relation to total revenue.
  • All of the players' salaries for year x must come out of the players' share for year x.
  • If the players' total salaries for that year are more than the players' share for that year, the players pay for that out of their own pockets, in the form of escrow payments not returned. Last year, I believe the players had to give back 11% of their salaries.
  • If Player X's contract lowers the cap hit by tacking on a so-called "tail" of minimum wage years at the end of the contract, there can be a wide discrepancy between cap hit and salary in any given year. This is allowed by the CBA.
  • If Player X's salary is, say, $11.5MM in one year, and his cap hit is only $6MM, there is a $5.5MM difference between the team's cap hit and the player's salary. The player gets paid his $11.5MM out of the fixed players' share.
  • Player X's salary is taking up a much greater slice of the pie in proportion to his cap hit. Everyone's salary is proportionately reduced to make room for this $5.5MM discrepancy (and, in fact, all such discrepancies, i.e. the cumulative effect of all front-loaded mega-term tail-wagging deals).
  • This, too, is allowed by the CBA. Why?
  • Because elsewhere in the player's contract, his cap hit will be much bigger than his salary (like at the end of Kovalchuk's contract) and in those years the player population will benefit, because our hypothetical player is now "making room" by taking almost none of the pie relative to his huge cap hit. So, in a front-loaded contract, the player population takes a hit during the some years, but makes it up in other years, so it evens out. In other words, it's fair.
  • But if the player retires after ten years, leaving seven years of minimum wage salary unclaimed, all of that comes off the books. No cap hit. No salary. No benefit for the players.
  • Our hypothetical player has gotten his benefit (paid up front). The team has gotten their benefit (been able to sign players they wouldn't have otherwise been able to afford).
  • Who has paid for this? The other players, the ones who paid out of pocket in the early years of Player X's contract. And the other teams, who did not get a fair and equal shot at signing players, because the team that cheated the cap gained an unfair advantage.
  • Therefore, since such a contract unfairly lowers the salary of every player, and gives the offending team an unfair advantage over rival teams, the contract undermines the cap system, and so is a circumvention of Article 50, provided that there can be no reasonable expectation the player will play to the end of his contract. That's in italics because, at this point, we have not established a standard for determining at what point "there can be no reasonable expectation" of a player playing to x age.
  • But we have established that, if there is no reasonable expectation Player X will play to the end of his contract, then Player X's front-loaded contract unfairly penalizes other players, is a circumvention of Article 50, and is prohibited.

Intent

  • One might object: "Where does the CBA say things have to be reasonable?"
  • The CBA specifically says (26.13b), "The System Arbitrator may find a Circumvention has occurred based on direct or circumstantial evidence, including without limitation, evidence that an SPC or any provision of an SPC cannot reasonably be explained in the absence of conduct prohibited by this Article 26."
  • The CBA sets this standard. The (in this case) unprecedented length of the contract must have a reasonable explanation that is not prohibited by the CBA.
  • If the term of the contract is so long that it cannot reasonably be explained in the absence of prohibited conduct, then it's a circumvention.
  • If it's unreasonable to expect a player to play to (for instance) age 44, then what reasonable explanation could there be for having a contract with a term that long?
  • If the salary was the same as the cap hit for the length of the contract (a la Ovechkin, if Ovechkin were older), then a reasonable explanation might be that the team really likes the player and wants to lock him up beyond the point where he can reasonably be expected to play, just in case he's the one in two thousand five hundred players who plays till he's 44. There is of course no harm in doing so, because -- since salary is level over the course of the contract -- the team gains no unfair advantage by adopting the "unreasonable expectation" and whenever the player retires the contract is terminated.
  • But, if the contract is front-loaded, and the salary is minimal during the years which it is not reasonable to expect the player to play, the team benefits unfairly from the "unreasonable expectation" by getting a lower cap hit over the course of the contract.
  • This explains why the team is motivated to adopt the "unreasonable expectation." Because it benefits by doing so. (See my post, Kavka's Toxin/Kovalchuk's Intent, for more nerdiness on this point.)
  • As has already been demonstrated, this unfair advantage penalizes rival teams and the player population as a whole, and so, has the effect of circumventing Article 50.
  • Since there is no plausible alternative motivation for the "unreasonable expectation" (assuming we have established that it is in fact unreasonable, as we will in the next section) that the player will play till he's 44, other than the team's intent to artificially lower the cap hit of the contract, we have now demonstrated both "effect of" circumventing and "intent to" circumvent the CBA.
  • Either one is sufficient. We have both.

What's reasonable?


I have a feeling the meaning of these two words is going to be debated this week. So I cut/paste from Webster's.

reasonable (adj) 1 a : being in accordance with reason <a reasonable theory> b : not extreme or excessive <reasonable requests> c : moderate, fair <a reasonable chance> <a reasonable price> [...] 2 a : having the faculty of reason b : possessing sound judgment <a reasonable man>

reason (n) 1 a : a statement offered in explanation or justification <gave reasons that were quite satisfactory> b : a rational ground or motive <a good reason to act soon> c : a sufficient ground of explanation or of logical defense; especially : something (as a principle or law) that supports a conclusion or explains a fact <the reasons behind her client's action.>

  • When trying to determine how many years Player X is likely play, it makes sense to look at past players' careers, to see if there's some kind of pattern.
  • It turns out, there is.
  • Here's a chart that shows the retirement ages of every player in league history up through 2006.

Dist_retired_reg_all_medium

(via www.quanthockey.com)

  • Eighteen skaters (forwards and defense) out of 4,573 played past the age of 40. That's a hair shy of 1:250.
  • Nine skaters made it past 41; that's 1:500.
  • Four guys made it past 42; that's not quite 1:1000.
  • Two guys made it past 43; that's about 1:2500.
  • If you just look at forwards, fewer than 1:3000 played past 43. That's one guy. Gordie Howe.
  • The odds of a player playing to the age of 44 are worse than the odds of a person correctly guessing -- twice in a row -- the identity of a card selected at random from a full deck of playing cards (1:52 x 1:52 = 1:2704).
  • The chances of a player playing to the age of 44 are 75 times worse than that of a giant asteroid hitting the earth on April 13, 2029 (which is just barely outside of the term of Kovalchuk's contract, by the way).
  • In terms of the historical data, the reasonable expectation of a player playing to the age of 44 is so minute as to be effectively zero. It could happen. But it's profoundly unreasonable to expect it to happen.
  • (reminds me of the aphorism, "the odds of winning the lottery are so low that one does not appreciably lessen one's odds by not buying a ticket." But that's really not part of this presentation.)
  • At this point, the location of the line has been narrowed down a bit. Namely, it's lower than age 44.
  • That is sufficient to conclude that such a contract (a front-loaded contract with minimum-salary years extending to age 44) is a circumvention. Because wherever the line is, this contract is on the wrong side of it.
  • But it invites the question of the other ostensibly similar contracts, which take players to age 43, 42, 41, 40, etc.. Do they cross the line? And if so, why weren't they rejected by the league?

Boiling the Frog

  • Let's consider the anecdote of the famous frog that is put into a pot of cold water which is then heated sloooooooowly to boiling point. The frog doesn't jump out of the pot because each fraction of a degree increase is so close to zero increase, that, at each point of comparison, (I'm quispifying the story, by the way) the frog might say, "warmer? Maybe, but it's not that much warmer than it just was a minute ago. And that didn't bother me, so why would this?" Result: cooked frog.
  • With each progressively extreme contract (extreme in the sense of how old the player will be at the end of it), the league evaluates the contract's legality and officially approves it, but each time with more reservation. The league is the frog. It tolerates 39, then when 40 arrives, well, that's pretty close to 39, so what's the difference? Hardly seems worth jumping out now. Then comes 42, and that's almost too much of a jump in "temperature" and the league issues warnings to the GMs about these "retirement contracts."
  • Everyone's on notice.
  • There is even a sense that, at 42, the water is just about at our limit of tolerance, and in fact the league starts an investigation as to whether any of these temperatures might be too hot.
  • And in the middle of that admittedly long-term investigation, with our tolerance already pushed to the brink, suddenly the temperature is turned up to 44.
  • And Bettman jumps out of the pot before he's boiled. Or something. 
  • A contract taking a player to 44 might be so obviously over the line, while others that weren't as extreme would be less obvious, or less egregious, and therefore less likely to make the frog jump.
  • That doesn't mean, however, that those other contracts (Hossa, Luongo, et al) aren't also circumventions. The CBA permits investigations of such contracts, even after the fact, with no time limit. 
  • So, there are two answers to the question, how is Kovalchuk's contract a circumvention while the others are not? (1) it's a matter of degree. And (2) the others might well be circumventions, after all.

Why the Kovalchuk contract is different than other mega-term front-loaded tail-wagging retiree contracts

  • I don't think the CBA prohibits long-term contracts provided that it's reasonable to expect the player to play to the end of the contract. So, even though the term of the Kovalchuk contract is 17 years, that wouldn't be the issue it is, if, (1) Kovalchuk were younger, say, 23 or (2) the salary was level across the term of the deal.
  • As demonstrated earlier, the odds of reaching 44 are twice as unlikely as reaching 42, and ten times worse than the odds of reaching 40. But even that doesn't fully underscore the difference, because:
  • Hossa, for example, was 30 when he signed his deal. Kovalchuk is 27. Not only does Hossa have less distance to travel, but he's got a three year "head-start." This is statistically significant; about 1/3 of the skaters in NHL history retired between 27 and 30. This means that Hossa stands a greater chance of playing to the end of his contract, because his contract starts when he's 30, and the pool of players still playing at 30 is more robust than the pool of 27 year olds, simply because they have survived that long already. Kovalchuk has three seasons to get there, and there is statistically a significant chance that a 27 year old player won't get there at all. 
  • This is easier to see in a chart.

I've graphed the likelihood, based on the quanthockey numbers quoted above, that a player of a certain age will make it through each subsequent year. The chart covers only the years 31 through 42, because these are the years that (mostly) overlap for the contracts of Hossa, Luongo, Zetterberg and Kovalchuk. Hossa and Luongo's contracts started at 30, Zetterberg's at 28, Kovalchuk's at 27. Therefore, the odds of Kovalchuk getting to 31 (year four of his contract) are much lower than the odds of Hossa getting to 31 (year one of his contract). 

Since I'm making my own eyes glaze over, maybe this is a better way to look at it: When Hossa signed his contract, the odds of him playing at least till he was 30 were 100%, because he had already done it. When Kovalchuk signed his contract (at 27), the odds of him playing at least till he's 30 were (and are) somewhere around 60-70%. This has nothing to do with Kovalchuk or Hossa personally. The stats are based entirely on their respective ages and the historical data. 

Two other important points. (1) Zetterberg's line should stop at 40, although I have graphed the probability all the way to 42. (2) Kovalchuk's line should continue off the right margin for two more years, despite being flat-lined at what appears to be zero.

Click on the graph to get a higher-res version that is still crappy to look at. I'm sorry about the quality here; I had a hell of a time getting the graph to format. The key is not legible, really, but the lines are, from top to bottom, Luongo, Hossa, Zetterberg and Kovalchuk. The x axis is years of age, from 31 to 42. The y axis is probability the player plays at age x, expressed in %.

Notice that the Kovalchuk line is consistently at the bottom, across the entire length of the contract.

Comps_medium

Here is a blow-up of the tail years:

Screen_shot_2010-07-31_at_6

Again, top to bottom, Luongo, Hossa, Zetterberg and Kovalchuk. The purple Zetterberg line should have stopped at 40, but I left it in. Luongo's chances are slightly better than Hossa's over the same period, because goalies on the whole retire later than skaters.

And, as a reminder, the bottom line -- Kovalchuk -- should extend another two years off the right hand margin.

  • This is a rather long way around to making the following point: if Kovalchuk's contract stopped when he was 42, it would still be less likely for him to play to the end of it than for Hossa or Luongo, because Kovalchuk's contract started three years before the other two. The fact that it starts earlier and ends later (in terms of the player's age) compounds the (un)likelihood that Kovalchuk will play to the end of the contract.
  • It's like he's running a 17 year marathon, and three years in, Hossa and Luongo join him, and they all run together for 12 years, at which point Hossa and Luongo are done, but Kovalchuk still has to run for two more years. 
  • Last but not least: the salary in the tail. A lot has been said about these tails and how they compare and how maybe they're all more or less the same. Let's compare the numbers directly: Kovalchuk to Luongo, Zetterberg and Hossa. Chart:







term tail tail/term tail value t$/yr top years ratio
Luongo 12 3 25.00% $3.6 $1.2 $23.4 15.44%
Zetterberg 12 2 16.67% $2.0 $1.0 $15.2 13.20%
Hossa 12 4 33.33% $4.0 $1.0 $31.6 12.66%
Kovalchuk 17 6 35.29% $3.5 $0.6 $68.0 5.15%

The columns:

"term" = length of contract. "tail" = the length of the tail. "tail/term" = the ratio of the length of the tail to the overall term (i.e. how big is the tail relative to the "dog"). "tail value" = the total salary paid over the course of the tail years."t$/yr" = the average salary during the tail years. "top years" = the total of the commensurate top salary years (for example, if the tail is 6 years long, "top years" tallies the top six salary years; if the tail is 2 years long, the "top years" column tallies the top two salary years). Lastly, "ratio" = the ratio of the tail $$ to the top years' $$. 

What does the chart tell us?
  • Kovalchuk's contract has the longest tail by far.
  • Even given the extreme length of the contract overall, Kovalchuk's tail still manages to take up the highest percentage of the overall deal (i.e. biggest tail-to-dog ratio). 
  • The salary paid per year in the Kovalchuk tail is by far the lowest, and is the only one of the four that dared drop below $1MM per tail year; they went as low as you can go, $550,000. 
  • Kovalchuk's top earning years, meanwhile, are within a hair of being more than the other three players' top earning years combined
  • Last but not least, the ratio of the tail dollars to the top dollars is two or three times smaller than everyone else's. Luongo gets about a sixth of his top salary during his last years. Kovalchuk gets about a twentieth
  • Short version: Kovalchuk's deal is the other deals with all the knobs turned up to eleven. 

Circumstantial evidence relating to context

  • The Arbitrator is allowed by the CBA to consider circumstantial evidence.
  • Certainly, there may be more evidence than we on the outside looking in are privy to. But this will (have to) suffice:
  • Kovalchuk, reportedly, was looking for a deal worth approximately $10MM per year for 10 years. Whether this is true or not will be easy for the arbitrator to determine since all the parties will be present at the arbitration. If this turns out to be false, disregard everything I'm about to say.
  • The Devils were (and are) under cap constraints that would have made a $10MM cap hit prohibitive.
  • The contract, specifically by virtue of its long, minimum wage tail, gave Kovalchuk what he was looking for (approximately $10MM/yr for ten years), while giving the team what it was looking for.
  • If you assume Kovalchuk will retire after ten years, then he got exactly what he demanded.
  • The alternative is to believe he will play seven more years for peanuts. If it's unreasonable to expect any given player to play till he's 44, then it's exponentially more so to think that this same player will play to an age only one player in thousands ever gets to, at what amounts to 1/20 of his peak salary. At that point, Kovalchuk may be making more than that in interest on his checking account. 

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Comments

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Wow quispy, ive never seen you so obsessed with one subject

You make some very valid points, however I wonder if it was the kings who had signed him for 17 years, would you be able to make just as strong of a case the other way?

by 4thliner on Aug 3, 2010 12:01 AM PDT reply actions  

WTF?

Have you not been reading the posts? He has made the case both ways. Think for yourselves people!

by kings4queens on Aug 3, 2010 12:37 AM PDT up reply actions  

WTF

As a matter of fact, I have read damn near every post or comment Quisp has ever written, going back a few years starting with insidesocal to kingskoolaid to lakinsiderer to hockeybuzz, and I am pretty positive I have read every post since he started blogging here.
That being said, I just feel like he has been extra obsessed with this situation. Even more obsessed then he was about the cap going down, while back, and the blackhawks : ). Quisps is at the top of my list of bloggers when it comes to making well thought out / educated points, and I appreciate everything he writes.
I think I am just tired of Kovalgate. I throw up in my mouth at the thought of him coming to LA after all this. I also think many people in the Kings community are still secretly hoping he comes to LA. I just think a lot of time has been wasted on this guy, all for him to keep his 17 year deal….. just my opinion.
I know everyone will say “well just don’t read it”…..unfortunatley that would break my 3 year streak of reading all of quisps comments/blogs.
Forgive my rambling, spelling, and grammar. It’s late, I’m on a boat in the bay and typing on my touch screen phone….. I have fat fingers

by 4thliner on Aug 3, 2010 1:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hey man

Whether or not Quisp is obsessed, it’s his blog. Just because a lot of NHL teams are talking about prospects and dreaming about additions that will never see the light of day, at least this blog has another story to fill the gaps between those posts. Additionally, it’s still only August, with a lot of time left for debate, which would even be more interesting once more of the details become concrete. I know you’re a Quisp supporter, as you stated, and not that this is a “with us or against us” type of scenario, but hell, at least I feel like I’m learning a lot about the CBA and the negotiation process. It’s summer, and I’ll read anything that is well-written and interesting, which is why I find myself coming back to this blog, despite it being a drawn out story.

To your point of “secretly hoping” for Kovalchuk, I consider myself guilty as charged. But whether it be Kovalchuk, Gaborik, etc., any player who can skate and shoot with the skills they do would be awesome. At the same time, I trust that management won’t overspend to the point that it cripples the team (the same point that’s been stated since the beginning).

by hughestom1 on Aug 3, 2010 2:07 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're not the only person commenting that I appear to be obsessed

That’s okay. My attitude is, (1) it’s really interesting to me, (2) it is not only the most important story happening this summer, but a watershed moment in league history, so I think any amount of “coverage” is justified, (3) it’s July, and we’ve covered all the Kings news.

I’m tired of Kovalgate, too. Interested, fascinated, obsessed maybe, but tired.

I don’t really have anything else to say on the topic, you’ll be happy to know, until the decision comes down.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 8:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Indicative of how tired of it we are.

www.prosportsblogging.com

by Great Ice-Pectations on Aug 3, 2010 10:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Very “glass is half full” of you.

www.prosportsblogging.com

by Great Ice-Pectations on Aug 3, 2010 1:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Sorry 4thliner

After all of the In Lou We Trust dudes attacking Quisp, I guess I was just overreacting and protective. I love this blog and the level of intellectual discussion that goes on here. And I have learned so much from Quisp and his analysis of hockey and the stats. We are all tired of Kovalgate, but until September 11, when Hockey Fest happens, followed by training camp, this is all we Kings fan have to sustain us:)
I didn’t mean to be a jerk. Sorry.

by kings4queens on Aug 4, 2010 3:39 AM PDT up reply actions  

Most of the ILWTers. Some of us still read this blog. Some of us appreciate getting our analysis from multiple sources with differences of opinion.

I’m not at all interested in this because of Kovy, it’s interesting to me because of the implications of the Arbiter’s decision on the game of hockey, regardless of which “side” wins.

The ideal solution would have been the League going “wtf?!” stamping their feet, and the Devils going “a’aight, you got us, maybe we did go a little too far,” swallow their balls and restructure the contract a little less extreme and closer to the line already deemed acceptible.

But, we didn’t get there. We got this mess. At least this part will be over soon. We’ll get another season of seeing the impacts it has.

by Murdoc on Aug 4, 2010 7:10 AM PDT up reply actions  

The implications on the game of hockey

I totally agree. While teams like Phoenix can’t even hold their head above water, it’s unfair for teams to structure deals that give them an unfair advantage, and clearly this is what Lou (or the owners) were trying to do. To me, hockey has always been fair and character driven, which is why I love it so much. I am undeniably worried about the implications more than having a great team.

by kings4queens on Aug 6, 2010 2:08 AM PDT up reply actions  

okay a bit late on this … I know some are tired of the Kovi talk, but I don’t see this as being about Kovi, but the bigger issue of the CBA and cap circumventing issue. Which I find fascinating. So I’m glad to see the posts here. Least we get to see a different view than over at the Devil’s site which is all “NHL is evil and wrong on this”, they won’t even consider the NHL might have a point.

Ever get the feeling we are on a collision course with reality?
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" -- Benjamin Franklin

by Angy on Aug 6, 2010 11:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your comment suggests that you're questioning Quisp's intellectual honesty

Because you’re hinting that partisan loyalty is swaying his opinion and his analysis.

I’ve been reading Quisp as long and as thoroughly as anyone, going back to his Kings Kool-Aid blog. I don’t question his intellectual honesty.

by DougX on Aug 3, 2010 3:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

I didn't read it that way.

Everyone thinks or assumes that sports fans’ objective arguments aren’t really objective and if the shoe were on the other foot, etc…

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 8:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

The argument is the argument. It doesn't matter if it's the Kings or the Devils or whoever.

But, sure, yeah, if the Kings weren’t run by who they are run by, and it was therefore possible for them to make that deal, the same argument would apply.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

That is an incredibly long post there, Quisp.

So, in the end…. what do you predict will happen? Ruling in favor of NJ/NHLPA, a new contract, Kovy going to Russia… and any penalties against the club, forfeiture of draft picks, whatever.

Denis Gauthier sucks at hockey... and life.

by Kevin Y on Aug 3, 2010 12:04 AM PDT reply actions  

flip coin

if the contract is voided, then i expect there to be penalties.

at which point, I would give NJD a 1:4 chance of signing him.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 8:47 AM PDT up reply actions  

my guess

contract is voided and NJ makes a new deal with Kovy. He will remain a Devil

by Jove on Aug 3, 2010 12:10 AM PDT reply actions  

Still depends on if the NHL fines the Devils or not, any fine also comes out of their capspace.

But I agree, I suspect the Devils are fined a few picks and rework the deal.

Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Aug 3, 2010 12:11 AM PDT up reply actions  

don't forget how shortening the term would drive the cap hit up.

if the devils want to re-sign under those conditions, it will be extra painful to do so.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 8:48 AM PDT up reply actions  

i have a question..

if the devils are fined draft picks …. where do those picks go? do other teams get them in like a bidding war or is there just some rounds with only 29 picks..?

by rmg4519 on Aug 3, 2010 9:09 AM PDT up reply actions  

they go to the void. No one gets them.

On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!

by Ubiquitous on Aug 3, 2010 10:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Excellent read Quisp

My favorite line is easily

Anything that causes a catastrophic failure of the CBA is a circumvention of the CBA. :)

Wheel of Location, Turn Turn Turn. Tell us the location that we will play.
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.

by Mark D on Aug 3, 2010 12:10 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I completely agree, that line is just awesome on every level.

by DragonGirl0583 on Aug 3, 2010 2:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also delicious

This one:

The chances of a player playing to the age of 44 are 75 times worse than that of a giant asteroid hitting the earth on April 13, 2029 (which is just barely outside of the term of Kovalchuk’s contract, by the way).
This post is so lovably “rec”-able in every way. And it’s wild people are surprised by the “obsession.” It’s a story of massive importance, which Quisp appears to have delved into way deeper than any MSM writer has bothered to do.

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 3, 2010 2:29 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Mine was:
It’s like he’s running a 17 year marathon, and three years in, Hossa and Luongo join him, and they all run together for 12 years, at which point Hossa and Luongo are done, but Kovalchuk still has to run for two more years.

I suddenly had the image of all 3 players “fake running” in place alongside each other … in front of some green screen with projected “marathon” images behind them, and all with 1970’s bad acting looks on their faces as they looked side to side at one another. I had to laugh.

Great post Quisp. I seriously wish I had Bloch’s email address – as this post would be awaiting his Inbox.

by OneTimer. on Aug 3, 2010 5:27 PM PDT up reply actions  

This one goes to 11

Quisp great stuff as always. Is there anything to the fact that since the deal does tail off at 550k that this would not meet the league minimum in those years? Do you think that is something the league will use as evidence of circumvention since clearly they are BS numbers and just put in as “filler”? They (Devils) can’t know what the minimum will be. It will definitely be higher than 550k in 2023. The hossa deal at least attempts to hit the mark.

God Loves the Kings

by kingfish! on Aug 3, 2010 1:42 AM PDT reply actions  

Quisp can correct me if I'm wrong, but...

I think the salary would automatically be adjusted to the league minimum, but the cap hit would remain the same. Still, though, it’s moot because Kovy would never play out those years. He’d have been long retired.

by GabrielaV2 on Aug 3, 2010 6:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

This is not exactly clear, and would likely require arbitration. The CBA is quite clear that no salaries can be lower than the minimum for any reason. (there’s a special situation with sliding contracts that causes this to appear to occur on rare occasions)

On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!

by Ubiquitous on Aug 3, 2010 8:32 AM PDT up reply actions  

Union contracts, across the board, not just sports, for example the UFCW (mainly grocery store workers), are reguarly “updated” or renegotiated every few years. When a new contract is put in place, those workers gaining benefits from a/the previous contract do not automatically lose benefits if they are not included in the new contract. Rather, they are “grandfathered in”, meaning the old employees keep the benefits while new employees do not receive them as they were hired under the new contract.

So while future minimum salaries may rise under future CBAs, it is quite plausible that that players scheduled to earn the current league minimum will continue to do so und future CBAs with higher league minimums. The league can’t just rip up every contract signed under an older CBA even if the old contracts contain clauses in them that are not allowed in a new CBA.

Furthermore, a new standard may be created under the next CBA that standardizes long-term contracts, standards which would prohibit Hossa-, Zetterburg-, Luango-type contracts, but those contracts will not be voided. Instead they will be grandfathered in.

by soccersucks on Aug 3, 2010 7:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Pure Genius.

I am going to let this all distill in my mind and hope to find a rational comment later, but thank you fro the work, it is truly enlightening.

However, you now owe me some nickels, tho, for using Player X as a name for your exemplar in “Where is the Line” and “What’s Reasonable.” I am claiming an implicit copyright on that name, even tho it is my poker moniker, and since my damages are that you have now created the chance that people could potentially mis-identify it as having something to do with hockey, I am reserving my right for further action. I may or may not conduct an investigation in the future, based on a clause which seems to be in no way illegal even tho it may circumvent the U.S. Constitution regarding any retro-active effect of legislation.

I count, or rather the “find” function counted, 7 uses. At the current rate of $.05 per use, that totals $.35.

I would prefer this to be paid out over 17 years…

End Corporate Personhood.

by Player-X on Aug 3, 2010 6:05 AM PDT reply actions  

But do you backcheck?

Because if you’ve ever backchecked there’s really no way a competent person could confuse you with Quisp’s “Player X.”

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 3, 2010 2:33 PM PDT up reply actions  

This is an interpritation of the CBA, not just facts from it. It can be read in the opposite direction as well. The league already showed their opinion on lowering the tail ends of contracts to lessen the cap hit, its fine. To me it doesn’t matter to what degree it is done. It was first done by Kirpusoff, from what I have found this is the first true clear circumvention of the cap. If it circumvents the cap by a tiny bit or by a lot it shouldn’t be allowed if the NHL wants this rejected.

You are going way to far with some of the stuff. First off, not many teams have the money or players to sign to this big or this high of a contract so it is not like your going to see 100 players get tailed off contracts before the new CBA. So the league is not going to explode if this gets through. You can’t pay a player as much as you want each year regardless of cap, there is a limit.

None of the players who took the tail end deals will be playing whether it be 1.25 million or 550k it makes no difference. The league already said its ok to do that, now that its become so public to the world Bettman is whining because he looks like a moron. The biggest mistake was cracking the door open with the Kiprusoff deal. It circumvents the cap, it shouldn’t matter to what level.

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 7:09 AM PDT reply actions  

You're grammar and spelling are terrible.

It makes your comment difficult to read. Please consider that next time you write.

As for your comment itself, it is just hopeful thinking. The CBA states nothing about using precedent to determine legality/illegality of contracts. Previous decisions by the league are, in no way, required to factor into the next decision. Along with that, the league may still deem those contracts illegal at some future time as the CBA allows infinite investigation time and has no Statute of Limitations.

Quisp has also shown you two different ways of showing either the intent to or the effect of circumventing the CBA. Only one is needed and it matters not which one it is. You may pick.

by 88fingerslukee on Aug 3, 2010 7:27 AM PDT up reply actions  

Funny how the only word I spell wrong is “interpretation” and “Kiprusoff” yet I am awful at spelling. I apologize for not knowing the grammar police were out blogging today. I’ll make sure to reread my post three times and run it through spellcheck.

First off, you say the CBA states nothing about previous contracts being used as a precedent. That’s fine, the CBA also doesn’t have any specific rules against this contract. Of course its not “required” as you put it, but it shows the leagues i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-a-t-i-o-n of what does and does not circumvent the cap. They have let BS contracts through before. Hossa gets 94% of his money in the first 64% of his contract. Kovalchuk will get 96% of his money in the first 66% of his contract. Hardly a difference.

The NHL will need cold hard facts to prove there was “intent”, which there probably are none. You can’t prove someone’s intent without some previous actions to indicate that. So I see no argument without some actual evidence.

If you read through the CBA, the word circumvention was not put in there to prevent these type of contracts, obviously. If you actually go through it and read it, “circumvention”, was meant to prevent teams from paying players outside the box. For instance “Hey Kovy, come play here and Nike will give you 10 million a year for 3 years, so we can lower your NHL salary to 70 million.” I think the biggest mistake the NHL made was using the word “spirit”. Who cares if it breaks the “spirit” of the CBA, that means nothing. I hope this post wasn’t too poorly written or too far away from your grammar standards.

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 7:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

you don't need cold hard facts to prove intent, and you don't need intent to prove circumvention

“cold hard facts” are not required, since the CBA specifically allows circumstantial evidence, and, even more specifically allows the arbitrator to require “reasonable” explanations for provisions of contracts.

“Who cares if it breaks the ‘spirit’ of the CBA”?

The CBA does. Intent of the CBA is protected by the CBA. You can say it means nothing, but you’re negotiating with yourself.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 9:02 AM PDT up reply actions  

You're wrong again.

The NHL does NOT need cold hard facts because circumstantial evidence (aka Deductive reasoning) is completely allowed.

If you missed reading the post you’re commenting on, I suggest you read it again. The intent was to lower the cap by tacking on meaningless years to the deal. It’s not too difficult to deduce the “intent”. Also, the language in the CBA is intentionally vague to catch obvious circumventions like this.

As for your mistakes, learn the difference between “to” and “too” and “your” and “you’re”. Also, punctuation helps avoid run-on sentences!

by 88fingerslukee on Aug 3, 2010 9:03 AM PDT up reply actions  

Hossa’s also the most egregious of the existing contracts. He gets 94.4% of his money in 67% of his contract. Kovalchuk gets 96.6% of his money in 65% of his contract. However, Hossa is a two-way player, and it’s entirely feasible he could fill a role on the third/fourth line and as a PK specialist at ages 38-41, when his contract is at its minimum. Kovalchuk is known for not being a two-way player, so that sort of argument is inconceivable for him.

By the way, I’m assuming you drew your last paragraph from Article 26, which also includes: “The following is a non-exhaustive list of activities that either constitute a Circumvention under this Article 26 or from which a Circumvention may be inferred” (emphasis in the original).

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Aug 3, 2010 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

The fun thing about those numbers is that they should be reversed for better interpretation.

Hossa gets 5.6% of his contract in the last 33% of the contract. (4 years)
Kovalchuk gets 3.4% of his contract in the last 35% of the contract. (6 years)

On the Mike Weber bandwagon.
Tyler Ennis: Freed from Portland!

by Ubiquitous on Aug 3, 2010 10:22 AM PDT up reply actions  

" ... to prevent teams from paying players outside the box."

Is that what you wrote? And you’re not seeing how this contract might be seen as just a wee bit outside the box?

I get your argument about using Nike, or a Mascot Fund, or some other wacky “spiff” to get a player his money, but please sir:

- It’s the longest contract given to a player (who is already midway through his career) … in the entire history of the NHL.
- Combined with: it would require the player to achieve that which only 1 other player has ever achieved … in the entire history of the NHL.
- Combined with: It would pay this marquee player the absolute “bare-bones minimum” for the final 1/3rd (6 years) of the deal.
- Combined with: it’s quite possible the team was warned prior that this deal would get rejected – they did it anyway.

I dunno LostNearHell, that’s one HELLUVA a box you got there.

by OneTimer. on Aug 3, 2010 6:03 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nope.

If you want to be taken seriously, write seriously. If you write with run-on sentences you risk mis-“interpritation”.

by 88fingerslukee on Aug 3, 2010 9:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

hahaha your such a joke. Who proofreads what they wrote while commenting on a blog. Did you ever hear of convienent typing? I type your as opposed to you’re so I can type faster or type whatever comes to my mind first. I really couldn’t care less about my spelling or grammar or “run-on” sentences on here, nor do I care if you take me seriously. I am not a journalists, nor do I try to write my own blog on my own site.

Now as far as my argument goes. I stand corrected as far as cold hard facts go. However, If you are saying that the NHL can show the Devils intended for Kovalchuk to never play past a certain point, you still need to show reasoning behind it. The Devils will also use type of argument, showing reasoning why he can play at 44. A big help will be Mark Recchi, who will turn 43, playing a Wing position. It’s impossible to know what Kovalchuk’s ability will be at 44. I still believe past contracts do play a huge role in this. It doesn’t matter what the CBA says on that you can use anything in an arbitration hearing which the Devils will surely use. The chances of Loungo, Hossa, ect. playing the last couple years of their contracts are as close to 0% as Kovalchuk chances are, in my opinion.

Also, I think the Devils can say that they think the value of a player at that age is around the league minimum. I don’t really understand why they didn’t shave some off the top to fill in the back end, but I wasn’t at the table writing up the contract so who knows. I think that type of restructure before the hearing would be a win/win, Bettman draws the line, Devils get Kovalchuk, Kovalchuk gets his money.

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 10:29 AM PDT up reply actions  

Yeah
Who proofreads what they wrote while commenting on a blog.

Well, the people who are taking seriously, for one. Frankly, you are the joke.

I type your as opposed to you’re so I can type faster or type whatever comes to my mind first.

This is entirely evident. Perhaps you should spend some time with your (see? not hard) thoughts before you so hastily scratch them out onto this blog for the world to see, laugh at and criticize.

I don’t really understand why they didn’t shave some off the top to fill in the back end

Because they were trying to artificially lower the cap in order to circumvent the CBA and because Kovalchuk was demanding 10 million a year. The only way to pay that and get a cap hit that’s reasonable is tack on ridiculous years. Otherwise the two parties would not come to an agreement. Instead of compromising (the Devils accepting a higher cap hit (hint, they couldn’t) or IK accepting a lower payout (hint, he’s a money-grubbing douche)), they tried to sneak this by the NHL and it failed.

By the way, your opinion and beliefs amount to exactly 0% of the deciding factors in the case…so I’ll ignore all of that.

by 88fingerslukee on Aug 3, 2010 10:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Look at me making mistakes now.

It appears as thought your affliction is contagious.

by 88fingerslukee on Aug 3, 2010 10:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

I guess your not TAKEN seriously.

Maybe you should proofread a little better so you can be taken seriously. God forbid your commenting career is tarnished due to a couple typing mistakes.

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Also, I highly doubt Quisp is on here making sure everyone used the correct forms of your and you’re and too and to. He is probably the only one who wants to be, and should be, taken seriously on any sort of level, and he does a good job at it.

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 10:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

Everyone makes mistakes.

The argument for proof-reading is that good grammar/usage/spelling/etc. reduces confusion and makes it easier to communicate a point.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 11:41 AM PDT up reply actions  

Just to add in some data on the escrow, I went hunting for numbers last month, and found the numbers for what the players got each year since the lockout. This is based on 100% being the players getting their entire salary – what they pay into escrow, they get back from escrow. For a couple years, they actually got paid more than their salary, because the sum total of payroll was less than the required percentage.

2005-06: players paid 104.64% of salary
2006-07: players paid 97.51% of salary
2007-08: players paid 100.66% of salary
2008-09: players paid 87.1% of salary
2009-10: players paid 89.2% of salary

We can see there was an immediate effect during the 2008 offseason. The first three years of the CBA, there was some “bobbling”, but it remained close to par. Once people realized the front-load could play with the cap, it shot down to players losing 1/8 of their salary to escrow. Essentially, the front-loaded contract is acting as a 10-12% tax on the players. That’s why I was actually somewhat surprised the NHLPA stepped in on this one, since it’s acting to the detriment of 90+% of the players, and benefitting a small number of the stars.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Aug 3, 2010 7:39 AM PDT reply actions  

Well Don Fehr knowns how it's done

Slather it up with the right rhetoric about fighting for the players’ interests against greedy owners, and most of your membership will either buy it because they don’t think it through, or because they don’t care.

It’s funny how free agency and the corresponding treatment of professional team athletes as workers who are part of a collective labor movement has actually produced a highly stratified star system with gross income and job security disparities between those workers.

by DougX on Aug 3, 2010 9:30 AM PDT up reply actions  

I was a bit surprised the NHLPA filed a grievance as well because it seems like contracts like this help the superstars while taking money from the rest of the players.

However, the escrow numbers that you show can’t be totally explained by only the new front-loaded contracts. Other factors like the economy, attendance, league growth, etc. factor in as well because the escrow account is to cover for the owners if the expected league revenues are lower than expected. This happens with the front-loaded contracts to a certain degree because they pay out more real money than the cap hit which lowers revenues, but lower attendance or the economy nose diving also cause lower revenues than expected and contribute to the escrow losses.

by GoKings09 on Aug 3, 2010 12:36 PM PDT up reply actions  

it's not that higher salary than cap hit lowers revenues, it's that all the salary must come out of the fixed players' share

If that amount is $1.2B (a figure which I just pulled out of my *), and the players’ actual salaries total up to more than that, then everyone’s salary is proportionately reduced. If the total salaries turn out to be less than the players’ share (which can happen if revenues are higher than expected) then the players all get a little (proportionate) extra.

The point is, in either case, a front-loaded contract like that will take up several million more than it would otherwise, and the result is — somebody worked these numbers out — somewhere in the neighborhood of $1-2K per player in the league, for each million the salary of player x is over the cap hit, is deducted from each player’s paycheck. Somebody worked out that the Kovalchuk overage costs Dustin Brown $9K in the first year.

the escrow numbers are mostly explained by revenue issues, not by the front-loaded contracts. But if you have ten players with such contracts, each player is going to pay between $30K (guy who makes $1MM) and $200K (Ovechkin) out of pocket for that.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 12:50 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not sure if this calculation will work, but I think it’s mostly accurate.

The total salaries are fixed at 54% of revenues. Last year, the league revenue was $3 billion, so $1.62 billion was the players’ share. Each million dollars of overage would cost ~0.062% of every player’s salary. Marian Hossa’s level of front-load would cost each player 0.165% of their salary, so using Anze Kopitar as an example, he lost about $9,900 of his salary just for Hossa’s contract. Daniel Briere’s contract cost him about another $5,600. Timonen’s “front-load” cost him $25.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Aug 3, 2010 1:05 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m not arguing against the numbers you are saying, but as you say each front-loaded contract costs the players about .16% meaning that in total all of the front-loaded contracts together only account for 2% or less of the salary lost by the rest of the players. In your first post the numbers show that 13% and 11% of the salaries in 2009 and 2010 was lost. So all I’m trying to say is that the overall loss of revenue from downturn of the economy and other factors accounts for the majority of the lost money and the front-loaded contracts(which are still taking money from other players and bad) is accounting for only a very small percentage of money lost.

Basically the point I have an issue with is that you said the front-loaded contracts is acting as a 10% tax or so on the rest of the players when really its more of a 1-2% tax and the rest of it is due to other forms of lost revenue.

I hope the point I’m trying to get across is clear and makes sense.

by GoKings09 on Aug 3, 2010 1:58 PM PDT up reply actions  

Yes, it is. I didn’t do the math before working on my original post. I should know better than to assume the front-loaded contracts are the entire issue.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Aug 4, 2010 4:43 AM PDT up reply actions  

Uh, yeah, I read the article two days ago when it was first posted. I was going to debunk it point by point, but I ended up writing this post instead. However, since you bring it up:
The NHL’s effort to disallow front-loaded, long- terms deals that are permitted by the collective bargaining agreement through arbitration is an attempt to legislate from the bench.

Obviously, this assumes that they are permitted, which is what the arbitration is for.

Commissioner Gary Bettman and the league are using this circumvention case against Ilya Kovalchuk and the Devils to try and [sic] gain the right to inflict arbitrary term-limits on contracts through the finding of an arbitrator …

Again, whether that’s “arbitrary” or not is up to the arbitrator. I have argued that it’s not arbitrary.

after failing to gain that power through the 2004-05 collective bargaining process that created the current CBA.

No. What the league “failed” to get in the CBA was an explicit limit. They did not fail to reserve the right to enforce an implicit limit. In fact, the CBA requires an implicit limit. If you think I haven’t already proved this, please show me where the logic breaks down.

Presumably, the league’s position is that a 12-year contract, such as the one that kicks in this year for 31-year-old Roberto Luongo, is acceptable, but a 17-year deal, such as the one that would begin this year for 27-year-old Ilya Kovalchuk, is fraudulent.

Presumably. But they could also retroactively de-register the Luongo contract.

Though this is the first circumvention charge filed since the lockout, this is not the first time the league has brought larger collective bargaining issues into an arbitration hearing. This case bears striking similarity to the 2003 case in which the NHL claimed signing bonuses to Joe Sakic, Rob Blake and Pierre Turgeon constituted illegal lockout protection and therefore, circumvention.

Previous CBA. Doesn’t apply. Even if it did apply, this doesn’t restrict the league’s right to reject contracts it feels are prohibited.

Signing bonuses were legal under the old CBA just as long-term, front-loaded contracts are legal under this CBA. Indeed, the league routinely registered contracts containing signing bonuses without protest, just as the league routinely has registered long-term, front-loaded contracts.

False equivalency. The league does not “routinely” register (actually, he means approve) long-term contracts. It examines such contracts to see if they conform to the CBA, investigate where appropriate, and reject where appropriate, in their opinion of course. Again, that’s why we’re having a hearing.

Ah. So when it was in the league’s mind to reject a contract, they did it seven years ago, just as they rejected Kovalchuk’s contract two weeks ago because it presumably was in the league’s mind that 17 years at $102 million with $99.25 million front-loaded into the first 12 years is circumvention. Yet, Vancouver’s 12-year, $64 million deal with Luongo, in which $60.382 million is front-loaded into the first nine years, is legal.

Well, the league doesn’t have one “mind.” [insert joke] They reject contracts based on what’s allowed in the CBA. As far as the rest of the quote, he’s just rehashing the same point. But, yes, that’s the idea.

Or, as arbitrator Parker wrote in June 2003: "The difficulty Daly had in articulating the standard by which the League challenged the Blake, Sakic and Turgeon [contracts] is troublesome […]

Hopefully he will have done his homework this time. Regardless of what Daly is or isn’t able to articulate, I don’t have any trouble articulating it.

The Kovalchuk contract with the Devils conforms to every standard contained within the agreement. No rule is violated.

The Post reports this as fact. I believe I have shown otherwise. If you disagree, lay out your argument. Brooks doesn’t bother. His entire argument is, “Come ON!”

The standard is simple. If Bettman doesn’t like it, the league tries to stop it. Only the arbitrator has the power to stop Bettman.

That is essentially an abuse of power argument. Which is interesting, since the league has been operating from a position of weakness on his issue for some time. They have made no secret of their concerns related to these contracts, concerns which has escalated as the contracts reached for higher and higher retirement ages, leading to warnings and (if memory serves) memos to GMs, and so on, that pushing it any further would lead to, well, exactly what it’s led to.

The league only has this one remedy to apply, which is a pretty “nuclear” option. Maybe that’s why they waited so long to use it.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 11:26 AM PDT up reply actions  

False equivalency.

Whenever someone says, “False equivalency.” Larry Brooks says, “Did someone call me?” The man is such a blind and biased sham on any matter involving the NHLPA or Bettman.

Lighthouse Hockey: More defensemen than we know how to spell.

by Dominik on Aug 3, 2010 2:39 PM PDT up reply actions  

Previous Contracts

Doesn’t this make it so the NHL can’t go challenge a previously registered contract:

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Section 11.6, an approved and registered
SPC may be subject to subsequent challenge and/or de-registration by the League: (i) in
the case of a Circumvention relating to either the Club Upper Limit or the Maximum
Player Salary, within sixty (60) days from the date upon which the facts of the
Circumvention became known or reasonably should have been known to the NHL.

They should have “reasonably” known about the previous contracts circumventing the cap when they were first brought to the table no?

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 10:40 AM PDT reply actions  

I'm not a CBA lawyer, but here's my $0.02 from trying to logically work things through

They can still find that a Circumvention occurred at any time, per Article 26.10(d). If they reasonably should have known about it ahead of when they discover it happened, they wouldn’t be able to de-register the SPC per 11.6(b), as you cited. If it wasn’t reasonable to expect the League to catch the Circumvention (the Club and/or player and/or third party played shell games), then the SPC could be de-registered per Article 11. However, the System Arbitrator has the power to void any SPC, per Article 26.13©(vi), if a Circumvention is found to have occurred.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Aug 3, 2010 11:00 AM PDT up reply actions  

No. This is why the league commenced investigations into those contracts last year. Those investigations (or maybe it's one big investigation) are still open.

The facts of the circumvention cannot “become known” until they are discovered through the process of investigation. The time table on investigations is open-ended.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 11:31 AM PDT up reply actions  

I didn’t know they were still open, I guess as long as they are still open anything can happen. Thanks for the clarification

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 11:44 AM PDT up reply actions  

I think you just revolutionized contracts...

There’s no way you can prove that a player WON’T be immortal.

What if said player turns out to be a vampire?

Or the Highlander???

I’m pretty sure there’s a greater chance than 0.0000000001% that either of those options could be true.

by Phalange on Aug 3, 2010 10:44 AM PDT reply actions  

You sir

Get very high marks for a Highlander reference. You had me laughing on that one.

by JZarris on Aug 3, 2010 10:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks. Of course, now no one else can make a reference to Highlander on this thread.

Because, you know, there can be only one.

And now there’s a hilarious image in my head of Kovalchuk beheading people with a giant sword.

by Phalange on Aug 3, 2010 10:52 AM PDT up reply actions  

I can see Lou as his Sean Connery-like older apprentice who sacrifices himself so that Kovi does not have to face the evil Gary Bettman until he is truly ready.

by JZarris on Aug 3, 2010 11:58 AM PDT up reply actions  

Old contracts being investigated

Quisp,

Please correct me if I am wrong:

(d) There shall be no limitation of time barring the investigation of a
Circumvention by the Commissioner.


and

Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in this Section 11.6, an approved and registered SPC may be subject to subsequent challenge and/or de-registration by the League: (i) in the case of a Circumvention relating to either the Club Upper Limit or the Maximum Player Salary, within sixty (60) days from the date upon which the facts of the Circumvention became known or reasonably should have been known to the NHL…

Doesn’t this mean Bettman would have to open up a challenge within 60 days of it being registered, but once open would have unlimited time to investigate it?

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 11:13 AM PDT reply actions  

Well that didn’t quite work out the way I planned…now the HTML police are going to find me.

by LostNearHell on Aug 3, 2010 11:14 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

now the HTML police are going to find me.

That was funny, dude. Hope you’re enjoying your time here at JFTC :)

The Spirit of MeatTrain'10!

by DodgerBlueBalls on Aug 3, 2010 11:33 AM PDT up reply actions  

Your previous comment went through above.

My understanding is that the league can investigate any contract at any time. The clause you site certainly could be used in an arbitration by the PA to argue that too much time had passed, but the league’s argument would be that the fact of the circumvention (as opposed to the suspicion of a possible circumvention) was not known until the investigation concluded. By definition, it concludes when they know the circumvention to be a fact.

In other words, the clause is vague enough to cut either way. There is plenty of language elsewhere that indicates investigations can take however long the league or PA wants them to take, the arbitrator can overturn any SPC, etc…

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM PDT up reply actions  

This site has bitter beer taste.

Devil for Life

by st.pattysdaymassacre26 on Aug 3, 2010 11:46 AM PDT reply actions  

That’s why we appreciate you, sunshine! You’re like a porcupine of joy.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 3, 2010 3:50 PM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

But beer’s more fun…

Unless you spike the Kool-Aid.

Honor is no substitute for victory.

by The Dark on Aug 3, 2010 12:48 PM PDT up reply actions  

Quisp, face it, the kool-aid ship has passed. I liked that site; it was a bit more intimate. Then again, I also liked lakingsinsider better before Hammond sold-out to the man. No, jk about that one Rich (don’t ban me, please!), but I did like it better before. z.B. (let’s see who gets that abbreviation), everyone there got the Your Eye jokes, now the comments are full of “who’s Juraj Mikus?”

by soccersucks on Aug 3, 2010 4:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

yes, i liked Kings Kool Aid

I especially liked being able to do literally anythinig i wanted to. however, in the entire run of that site i got as many visitors as this site gets in a day.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 5:41 PM PDT up reply actions  

You could still post over there if you want…nothing stops you from having two blogs.

I know it means nothing, but I like the fact that that you have a larger audience.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 3, 2010 6:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

It's important to connect the basements to all the other basements.

It makes the Kings Hive Mind more robust.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 6:12 PM PDT up reply actions  

Kings KoolAid could be the secret rec room! With foosball.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 3, 2010 6:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

As long as it’s at your mom’s.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 3, 2010 6:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I would rather not.

No, thanks.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 9:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Man, you’re such a mythbuster. First you say the league has a case, now you’re not in your mom’s basement….next you’re going to tell me that bloggers wear pants.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 4, 2010 6:42 AM PDT up reply actions  

next you’re going to tell me that bloggers wear pants.

Myth… confirmed.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Aug 4, 2010 8:23 AM PDT up reply actions  

The Latest from NHL.com

Ilya Kovalchuk’s immediate and potentially long-term future will be determined at a hearing that will take place in Boston starting Wednesday according to multiple reports. It will be up to arbitrator Richard Bloch to determine if the NHL was within its legal right to reject the 17-year, $102 million contract Kovalchuk signed with the New Jersey Devils on July 19 or if the contract should be immediately approved by the League.

The hearing will reportedly begin Wednesday and conclude Thursday. Bloch could render his decision as early as Friday, though a report in the Newark Star-Ledger suggested Monday would be more likely for the ruling to come down.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=535392

by Doughty99 on Aug 3, 2010 4:33 PM PDT reply actions  

Quisp,

Your interpretation of the CBA is certainly valid and rather insightful. Regardless of whether the league or the PA actually has the better case, you do bring up some valid points. Your section on “Cost-Certainty” with regards to the CBA is something I wish other people were looking more into. While I feel that the arbirtrator is more likely to side with the PA through my own reading of the cap, the NHL does have a case – if they didn’t, why would they have rejected the contract in the first place?

With that being said, I’d like to point out a few things regarding the use of the QuantHockey retirement ages in regards to Hossa being more likely to finish his contract because he signed it at a later age in comparison to Kovalchuk. The NHL Average Retirement Age statistics summarize the average retirement age at 27.96 years, whereas the NHL Average Player Age (http://www.quanthockey.com/TS/TS_AverageAge.php) has historically been around the same as the retirement age (27-28) with the average age of players at 27 for the 2009-2010 season. I don’t know how many people have recognized this.

Additionally, because the retirement study compares all skaters playing their last NHL game within that time period, I would expect that this would include a number of players who have short NHL careers through short-term call-ups from the minors, etc., which typically do not apply to the caliber of players who are generally offered lengthy NHL player contracts, thus likely skewing the average age of retirement and making it essentially useless. My apologies if I am indeed wrong.

I would prefer that an average age of retirement be established from players who are of the caliber of a player like Kovalchuk, or at least of consistent NHL-level play (i.e. only players with one-way contracts, players who have played greater than x number of games). That would serve as a better comparison, for determining how long this player will be likely to play, given that Kovalchuk is not an average NHL-er. I guess the only way to be certain that 17 years isn’t going to happen is to build a time machine!

Note: I am a Devils fan.

by Chris Marnell on Aug 3, 2010 5:15 PM PDT reply actions  

this is the reason that I took the numbers for each player starting at the first year of their contract.

kovalchuk’s numbers assume he has gotten to 27 (which he has). hossa’s start at 30. Obviously, the older you are, the farther you’ve gotten, the smaller your population for that age group, the greater your odds of getting to the next season. It would of course be ideal to weed out all the one season careers, but not possible given the nature of the data. Fortunately, there are many fewer of those as players get older, so the numbers aren’t as noisy in the range we’re dealing with.

Relating to your desire to see retirement numbers of IK caliber players, I did a related chart and graph on the output of everyone who has ever scored 50 goals. i didn’t deal with retirement per se, except that the chart does note when they retired. check it out in the “kovalchuk” section. It’s down there somewhere. I believe the title is “the history of 50 goal scorers after age 26”

All Devils fans are welcome. I almost always root for the Devils. When Brodeur retires I will re-evaluate. But they’ve obviously been one of the best teams over the last 20 years.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 6:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

Great stuff, man. Great stuff.

One small public service announcement:

Let’s consider the anecdote of the famous frog that is put into a pot of cold water which is then heated sloooooooowly to boiling point. The frog doesn’t jump out of the pot because each fraction of a degree increase is so close to zero increase, that, at each point of comparison, (I’m quispifying the story, by the way) the frog might say, “warmer? Maybe, but it’s not that much warmer than it just was a minute ago. And that didn’t bother me, so why would this?” Result: cooked frog.

Frogs aren’t this dumb. Just thought I’d restore everyone’s faith in amphibianity.

I express no opinion on whether the players union would figure this out if it were happening to them.
 

Atta dinnin stick a who!

by Gould Old Days on Aug 3, 2010 5:23 PM PDT reply actions  

Historic regardless of perspective

Regardless of which side of the v. you are on, everyone can agree that this arbitration will be historic on many levels.

Also, very nice article. It was extra Quispy

by Bobby Scribe on Aug 3, 2010 8:18 PM PDT reply actions  

Circumstantial Evidence

I have a feeling that a lot of evidence is going to be presented by both sides related to bargaining history. In the course of bargaining over these new provisions, both sides will exchange proposed wording and interpretations of the wording.

Part of the question is whether the contract circumvents, not just the actual words on paper but also, the intent behind the provisions and specific wording of the CBA. The best way to prove intent is through notes of the bargaining sessions, earlier drafts of the language, and notes/emails embodying the parties’ impressions.

Another thing that comes in a fair bit in arbitration, that is not generally allowed in the courtroom, is hearsay evidence (i.e. “he said blah blah blah”). The arbitrator can give it whatever weight he feels it is worth (which is not always much), but it can be admitted. So, for example (and I’m just pulling this out of the air with no real basis), if Kovalchuk’s wife said to Brown’s wife, while they were out here “Ilya and I plan to move to Russia in 10 years when he retires,” that statement can be admitted, even if Lombardi is testifying that he overheard it. Again, the arbitrator won’t necessarily give it a ton of weight, but he can consider it.

Because the salary cap was such a huge issue during negotiations, I suspect there is a lot of bargaining history evidence, even if there is not a ton that contemplated these specific contracts. The fact that they used an average salary vs. an actual salary cap hit leads me to believe that they will be bringing in witnesses who were involved in the negotiation of those provisions. Lou may be one of those witnesses, ironically enough.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall…

by DVLEsq on Aug 3, 2010 10:41 PM PDT reply actions  

A narrative that appears to be emerging (aided, I am guessing, by leaks from the NHLPA) is that the league tried to get an explicit limit on term and "failed"

and so they are essentially cheating by trying to get the arbitrator to create new law (or some such). It seems to me, though, that — no matter what the league or the NHLPA tried and failed to get into the CBA five years ago — not getting certain language into the CBA is not the same as getting the opposite language. e.g. not getting an explicit limit on contract length does not equal getting an explicit “no limit” on contract length. The league might well have reasoned, “well, we gave it the old college try, but we don’t need an explicit limit on term because the rest of the CBA provides an implicit limit on term.”

What’s strange — and I wonder if the arbitrator will get into this — is that these contracts don’t actually help (and may even hurt) most teams and/or most players, so there is a good reason for the league and the NHLPA to be on the same side of this argument. Yet the NHLPA is essentially defending a contract that is of a type that is possible for only a handful of players.

By the old way of thinking (pre-2005), the NHLPA looked good if it was driving up salaries for its members; so thinking about it that way, the NHLPA might just be mindlessly adhering to this old now-outdated way of doing business. Because, under this CBA, driving up player salaries is not even actually possible, since the pie is a fixed number based on revenues. All the NHLPA can do, by driving up certain salaries, is effectively redistribute money from the lower salaried players to the big named ones. I keep wondering when the players are going to figure this out and — for example — stop voting for the 5% inflator, which does nothing but allow teams to spend $150MM more (30 teams times $3MM per team) on contracts, which — if that pushes the players’ salaries over the players’ share of revenue, comes entirely out of their own pockets.

I have a feeling the players just haven’t really thought about it, or are too busy to care. The fact that something like ten players came to the last meeting (around the draft?) is telling…and slightly terrifying.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 3, 2010 11:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not getting certain language does not explicitly mean the opposite but, if that is true, the PA will certainly introduce that evidence. But, this case is also not just about contract length, so that argument only goes so far. I don’t think the league would be fighting the contract if the discrepancy in dollars wasn’t so obscene. As has been discussed numerous times, if the last few years tailed off with something more like 2.5, 2, 1.5, 1, .75, and had there not been such a big discrepancy between the last 5-6 years vs the first 8 or so years, the NHL would have raised a stink the way it did with the Hossa contract, but probably not rejected the contract.

The PA is in a difficult situation. It has to stand up here to protect its positions, particularly if contract length was an issue in the last round of negotiations. Often unions have to take positions that benefit only a small subset of their members, even to the detriment of other subsets. Think about a union in the manufacturing sector – if the union fights for certain seniority-related benefits, such as job protection for longer tenured employees during layoffs, by definition that hurts its more junior members. This is one of those situations – the PA is fighting to preserve the rights of maybe the top 5 or 10% of its membership even if others won’t necessarily benefit from it and might be hurt by it.

The PA also might be setting the stage for this to be a bargaining chip in the next CBA. Even if the arbitrator rules in the league’s favor, contract length alone probably is not going to be what he bases his opinion on. And if the PA wins, they have a major victory. Whichever way this arbitration goes, the union is going to be able to sit across from the league with a little bit more ammunition to say “we know you want to eliminate these contracts, so what are you going to give up to get that?” For example, the league reportedly wants to lower the salary floor for the small market teams – how likely do you think that would be if they also have to fight for a limitation to these cap circumventing contracts? What will also be interesting is to see how unified the teams are in the next CBA negotiations considering not all teams like these kinds of contracts, even tho some powerful ones do.

I think you are right that not all of the players have really thought about some of the issues. From what I have read, the NHLPA membership is largely apathetic and the union has been in turmoil for a number of years. Unions in those situations are never 100% effective and a few powerful members can exert a lot of control that isn’t always rational. Hopefully, the players will get a new Executive Director in place soon and hopefully it will be someone strong enough to get that union’s house in order (just hopefully someone rational enough to work with Bettman to avoid another work stoppage).

by DVLEsq on Aug 3, 2010 11:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

Hot diggity damn Quisp

I may as well join in on the love fest, since you deserve it Quisp! That was a brilliant piece. I wish I had your patience to wade through the language of the CBA, since it is fascinating.

While I have little first hand knowledge of the CBA (most of it comes from you… good on you, shame on me!), in my meandering through the Kovalchuk issue, the precedent always draws me in closest. I do not agree with the thought that “Luongo, Hossa, et al were allowed to pass, so why not Kovalchuk?” I’m not a slippery slope kind of guy. Take a sledgehammer and cut through that damn mountain… no more slope to slip down. You thoroughly debunked this theory in remarkable fashion Quisp, but there is one particular issue that I find important that I feel you glazed over. Well, perhaps glazed over is misleading… tangentured (I’m aware this is not a word) away from.

Useless digression aside, I ran some of my own numbers in comparing Kovalchuk’s contracts to the other lifetime deals. If anyone cares to read it in its entirety, its on lakingsnews somewhere in last weeks posts. Point being (and this immediate thought is spurned by The Dark’s earlier comment about percentage of money earned by Kovy and Hossa in what percentage of their contracts… ~94% of money in 67% of the contract for Hossa, ~96% in ~65% for Kovy, I believe were his numbers), that while a look at the contracts in such a light is revealing, it is also easily manufactured… in a sense. Add a year and the calculation will shift wildly. Example: 67% of Hossa’s contract is 8 years. 94% of the money is $59.3. Tack on a year, it becomes 9 years and 60.3, and all of a sudden I can say, no Hossa gets 95% of his money in the first 75% of the contract. That doesn’t sound nearly as bad. One number changes much more than the other (which is kind of itself indicative of the problem with these contracts in the first place!). Anyways, what I think needs to be looked at is the max salary that a player makes.

Screw it… I don’t feel like rewriting, or copying and pasting and formatting, all the crunching I did last week, so just look at this for the full numbers breakdown… http://lakingsnews.com/2010/07/28/kovalchuk-vs-the-world/, but essentially, if you look at these retirement contracts, there is a gigantic difference between Kovalchuk’s contract and the rest in terms of the discrepancy between the cap cost to the team and the real top salary they get paid in the ‘prime’ years of their respective deals. For me, this is what the circumvention issue ultimately boils down to. Kovalchuk’s contract undercuts everyone else but Hossa’s by ~25% in this regard, and even undercuts Hossa’s by ~15%. There really is no fibbing with those numbers when comparing the max salary to the cap hit.

This is why so many things have to considered here. Look at it in one light, and it all seems within the same realm of ‘reason’ (Luongo @ age 43, Hossa @ 42, Kovy @ 44, etc.) I don’t care if a few bogus years are tacked on to bring the hit down… to a degree. As with all things in life, moderation is a crucial… borrow $20 bucks from your friend for gas, cool beans. Borrow against your house 3 times for drug money… not so good. Disregarding my degenerate interest in hyperbole, Hossa’s cap hit is much more relatively close to his salary than Kovalchuk’s is… or would be, if the deal goes through. The rest of the deals (Lecavalier, Zetterberg, Luongo, etc) are not THAT far off. Of course, we could spend the duration of Kovalchuk’s contract debating the definition of “THAT” and still not come to a foolproof conclusion.

Like Quisp said, and worded better than I, no one would give a hoot if the salary were even across the board. Devils want to commit $6 million to Kovy at age 44? Sure, have fun with that. Maybe he plays, maybe he doesn’t. That’s OK because Kovy is a $6 million player in that case and costs the team 6. But when a $11.5 million player only costs you 6, then there is a big issue.

Creativity in numbers is a dangerous thing, and as physicists often see when their formulas eventually break down, you can only play with them so long before something goes wrong or someone gets pissed.

I guess, that was my long winded way of saying that whether or not the league can or will go back and revisit the other retirement deals they’ve previously approved (just forget that this is the first time I mentioned that point, Kovalchuk’s contracts is the ugly one in the freak show. They may all be freakish, but even the freaks turn their noses up at some.

by Surly Jacob (JDM) on Aug 3, 2010 10:45 PM PDT reply actions  

Well said

Just because they have let a few bad deals through does not guarantee that they can’t draw the line somewhere. Is it admissible as evidence? Sure. But so is the fact that the League investigated Hossa’s contract and issued an admonish that they were not going to tolerate more of these contracts.

What you say about the length is very true – I don’t think the League would have much problem with a few extra years tacked on. But this contract pushed the loophole so far and in so many different directions that the loop became unraveled.

by DVLEsq on Aug 3, 2010 11:09 PM PDT up reply actions  

You reminded me of something I forgot to mention

The real problem here is the 100% rule. The one that says salary can never drop by more than half the largest single year of the contract between any give years. I think that’s what it says… I suck at law speak. If the language were adjusted, and the rule read “the salary can NEVER fall below 50% of the sum of the largest single salary year”, then these contracts would cease to exist. You would have to tack on nearly 100 years to bring the cap hit below 6M on a contract that pays $100 in the first 10.

Maybe I’m wrong though…. I just tried to run some math, but I’m far too desperately in need of sleep.

by Surly Jacob (JDM) on Aug 3, 2010 11:33 PM PDT reply actions  

That’s a good point although I don’t think it is entirely feasible. I don’t see any problem with a star player getting a maximum salary for a few years if they can negotiate it. A player’scareer can be ruined at any time if he gets injured, so they should be able to front-load contracts, when they are at their prime and giving the most bang for the buck, as long as they are not doing ridiculous stuff on the back-end. Tying the maximum to the average and tying the minimum to either the average or the maximum might work. Maybe if they did something like the lowest year cannot be less than 50% of the average or 25% of the highest year, whichever is lower, and the highest year cannot exceed the average by more than 50%. So, with a $6M average, the highest year would be $9M and the lowest would be $2.25M (25% of $9M).

I think the rule with the first two years of the contract is something that back-fired. I would put money down that both sides, when they came up with that language, assumed that players were going to front-load contracts under the salary cap system they were creating. And that is where it seems Lou’s involvement with the CBA proved to be a big benefit in negotiating this contract (or maybe Grossman is just a genius at exploiting loopholes). He knew that rule better than most people and found a very clever way around it by using a mid-range number in the first two years. That rule might actually come into play in the arbitration – if there is evidence that the intent behind it was to ensure that salaries don’t deviate significantly from an average, and if the trend before the last CBA negotiation was that salaries tended to be higher in the first few years (or if they had studies from other sports or experts that said that is what would occur with this kind of salary cap), then that would probably be presented.

It’s gonna be an interesting few days…

by DVLEsq on Aug 4, 2010 12:04 AM PDT up reply actions  

Like it a lot, never double-checked the percenatages you gave through various contingencies but I like your ideas...

to tie the percentages as you said.

I also think that if there is a known escalation of minimum salary every year, then no contract can pay less than the projected minimum. There could be a 10% fudge factor to give slight leeway, but the whole idea of paying a guy today’s minimum 17 years from now is just not sensible.

End Corporate Personhood.

by Player-X on Aug 5, 2010 8:34 AM PDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the Italian lesson ;-)

I was just pulling those percentages – or percenatages, for the Italian readers – out of the air and trying to come up with some plausible alternative that could work, in theory, at least. Really, all you need to do is tie the average and the highest year together and you potentially limti the ability to do this kind of deal while still keeping some leeway to reward a star player. It really doesn’t matter how low they go (as long as it is not below the minimum or some estimate of what the minimum will be), as long as how high they go is limited.

by DVLEsq on Aug 5, 2010 3:00 PM PDT up reply actions  

Also what I haven't heard mentioned

is that the arbitrator can call anyone they want (within reason of course) that might have information, which means they can call the Kings people who dealt with trying to sign Kovi who would certainly be more open in discussing what Kovi and his agent said. Not saying they did say anything but this isn’t just about what the NHLPA and the NHL have to say a bland turn of phrase in a negotiation can push this either way

No one knows why, but second only to eating the brains of the living, the dead love affordable pre-fab furniture.

by Maverides on Aug 4, 2010 8:38 AM PDT reply actions  

So tired of Devils fans bitching

Their team has been to the Stanley Cup Finals 4 times in the last 15 years and won the Cup 3 times. The Kings have been to the playoffs 5 times in that same span and played 6 rounds. Say what you will about how poorly the Kings have been run, that is irrelevant. We as fans have actually suffered. They have not. And yet all they do is bitch bitch bitch about how the NHL is against them. I’m so GD sick of hearing it.

Their team is already stacked with talent just about right up to the Cap and yet they want more. It’s never good enough for these people. Your team cheated. Get over it. In the next 5 days the arbitrator will confirm this. It is so blatantly obvious that everyone else in the hockey world sees it except you people.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I think the Kings’ 15-year offer was probably also a CBA circumvention, though not even close to as monumentally over-the-top as what the Devils tried to do. I imagine he will end up with the Kings for something more like 60 million over 10 years or he’ll jump ship and take Russia’s money.

by Garrett79 on Aug 5, 2010 1:18 AM PDT reply actions  

Your passion is refreshing, but you’re the one bitching.

Your myopic view of the situation is disappointing. Even your own Quisp has the thing pegged at a coinflip, as does anyone looking at the situation objectively.

Your optimism that he’ll be a King for $60M is tainted by your fandom.

I sincerely hope you won’t be too disappointed when all this is over.

by Murdoc on Aug 5, 2010 5:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

What do I do when I get tired of hearing bitching about the guy that was bitching about bitching?

I guess I just bitch about it until I get sick of that. Life’s a bitch, and so is my ex-wife.

End Corporate Personhood.

by Player-X on Aug 5, 2010 8:29 AM PDT up reply actions   1 recs

Fans on both sides have a lot of things to vent about, and it’s our right. It’s been a crazy process, that’s for sure.

In Dinglebarn We Trust

by Niesy on Aug 5, 2010 9:54 AM PDT up reply actions  

Lombardi said it was a 13 year deal

And it would have been approved. The lowest salary was $1.5 million.

by Sydor25 on Aug 5, 2010 10:14 AM PDT up reply actions  

August 9th is Decision Day for Kovalchuk.

8+9 = 17.

If the contract is voided, expect Kovalchuk to announce a new contract on 8/17. ;)

by Sydor25 on Aug 5, 2010 2:08 PM PDT reply actions  

I Just Want It Over

As much as I want AND BELIEVE that the NHL will win out, I want the PA to win more for only one reason.

PA wins and this whole thing is over … PA loses and it drags on another 2 weeks.

UG

by Matt George on Aug 5, 2010 5:43 PM PDT reply actions  

That's a good point.

And it might take all month.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 5, 2010 9:01 PM PDT up reply actions  

It would still be better than the normal off season BS...

…and it would be awesome to watch the NJ fans melt down. Along with all of the hockey “experts” that predicted a slam dunk for the NHLPA.

by Sydor25 on Aug 6, 2010 6:06 AM PDT up reply actions  

either way the experts will have their own self-validating narrative in which they play the role of experts

I’m not sure how awesome it would be to witness the NJ fan meltdown. Many will just double-down on conspiracy and other such explanations (teh CBA is a sham, the NHLPA is corrupt, Bettman has a vendetta, Lou intentionally caused this to happen because ownership forced him to make the deal and he wanted it to be rejected, the arbitrator should never have been allowed to hear the case because he’s a Detroit fan…make up your own…)

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Aug 6, 2010 8:36 AM PDT up reply actions  

It would still be entertaining for August, usually the worst month for NHL news.

I can handle the conspiracy explanations/theories much more than the gloating that will take place if the arbitrator sides with the NHLPA. Most of the conspiracy theories will remain on the NJ blogs, but the gloating will permeate everywhere.

by Sydor25 on Aug 6, 2010 9:12 AM PDT up reply actions  

Quisp

Truly impressive. If no-one in the arbitration hearing had a copy of this cached on their computer I’ll eat my hat.

by Nirbo on Aug 8, 2010 6:40 PM PDT reply actions  

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