The Real Western Conference Standings
But first, the good and the bad from the last two nights:
The Good: Kings win, Avs lose, Preds lose, Blues lose, Sharks half-lose, Jackets lose, Coyotes lose, Hawks lose.
The Bad: Flames win, Coyotes win, Ducks win, Wild win.
That's a great pair of days for LA. The Kings win, plus 6.5 good vs 4 bad outcomes.
The real Western Conference standings:
| Q | OFF. | PTS | W% | PRJ | PB | to94 | GP | W | W%* | Q* | |
| 1 | 1 | VAN | 71 | 0.710 | 116 | 29 | 10-19-3 | 50 | 29 | 0.620 | 1 |
| 2 | 2 | DET | 66 | 0.673 | 110 | 32 | 13-17-3 | 49 | 28 | 0.612 | 2 |
| 3 | 3 | DAL | 65 | 0.650 | 107 | 35 | 13-16-3 | 50 | 26 | 0.600 | 3 |
| 4 | 4 | NAS | 60 | 0.600 | 98 | 40 | 16-13-3 | 50 | 21 | 0.540 | 5 |
| 5 | 6 | PHX | 59 | 0.578 | 95 | 43 | 16-12-3 | 51 | 23 | 0.490 | 11 |
| 6 | 5 | ANA | 60 | 0.577 | 95 | 44 | 16-11-3 | 52 | 24 | 0.538 | 6 |
| 7 | 9 | MIN | 55 | 0.561 | 92 | 43 | 18-12-3 | 49 | 25 | 0.510 | 8 |
| 8 | 7 | CHI | 56 | 0.560 | 92 | 44 | 18-11-3 | 50 | 23 | 0.520 | 7 |
| 9 | 9 | COL | 56 | 0.560 | 92 | 44 | 18-11-3 | 50 | 22 | 0.500 | 9 |
| 10 | 8 | SJS | 56 | 0.560 | 92 | 44 | 18-11-3 | 50 | 22 | 0.500 | 10 |
| 11 | 11 | LAK | 55 | 0.550 | 90 | 45 | 18-11-3 | 50 | 22 | 0.540 | 4 |
| 12 | 12 | CGY | 54 | 0.529 | 87 | 48 | 19-9-3 | 51 | 19 | 0.471 | 12 |
| 13 | 14 | STL | 51 | 0.520 | 85 | 47 | 20-10-3 | 49 | 19 | 0.449 | 14 |
| 14 | 13 | CBJ | 51 | 0.520 | 85 | 47 | 20-10-3 | 49 | 19 | 0.469 | 13 |
| 15 | 15 | EDM | 38 | 0.388 | 64 | 60 | 27-3-3 | 49 | 14 | 0.306 | 15 |
How to decode the standings:
Q is my rank, sorted by win percentage. Off. is the official standings (as rendered by ESPN). PRJ is projected final points. PB is points-blown (two points for a loss, one point for an OTSOL; lower score is better). TO94 is the record needed to get to 94 points (the presumed -- by me -- playoff threshold). GP is games played. W is wins.
I added two new columns (actually they're old columns I deleted for awhile and are now back in a new form). W%* is the team's win percentage if there was no Bettman point, no point for losing in OT/SO. Q* is the rank a team would have with that W%*.
I include it because I noticed last night that the Kings, eliminating the Bettman point, leap from 11th to 4th. The Coyotes suffer a huge drop. Everyone else stays in the same neighborhood.
Some other observations:
- Since Calgary continues to win and Nashville continues to lose, I had to add them to the "blue box," which is my way of indicating the teams fighting it out for the last (now) 5 playoff spots. We were looking only at 5-8, but 4th is now in play.
- Seven of those eleven teams are within one (budgeted, future) loss of each other.
- 4th and 14th are separated by 9 points, 7 points-blown, and 4 (budgeted, future) losses.
- The Kings are, no matter how you slice it, no more than a point out of 8th place.
- By one of my previous yardsticks (the one which determines whether or not the Kings should be sellers at the deadline), the Kings now need a record of 6-5-1. But better is better, since 6-5-1 before the deadline would require 13-7 to close out the season. I would love for the Kings to put together an 8-3-1 stretch going up to the deadline, lessening the post-deadline burden to 11-9. But that's just me. The Kings have put themselves in an exponentially better place by winning these last three.
37 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I love this chart
The good news is clearly the Kings situation is not much worse then that of the other “Blues Club” members.
If they can sneak into the playoffs with their defense they should provide us with a good showing.
When I first became a fan I thought the tie system was “quaint”. Then we had a season where several teams in the Norris Division were playing “not to lose” in the 3rd periods. Really took a lot of air out of those games.
I’ve never liked the tie system and what it can do to third periods.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
me neither
but i hate 3 point games even more. I would love to have 2 points for a win in regulation/OT. and 1 point for a shootout win. 0 points for a loss in regulation/OT/Shootout Loss.
We’d probably have teams go all out until the final whistle under that scoring system and the excitement of the shootout would still remain… i think.
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
by BoulderDodger on Jan 27, 2011 1:28 PM PST up reply actions
I still think the best idea is to keep the shootout/OT format but just change it so a regulation win is worth 3 points. Then 2 points for OT/SO wins, 1 point for OT/SO losses and no points for losses. This would keep the teams playing hard till the end of regulation to try to get all 3 points. Right now teams can just play it safe, take their guaranteed one point and maybe get another in OT/SO, but if regulation wins are worth 3 points, then there is the incentive to go for the win to get that extra point that won’t be available if the game goes to OT. Plus it makes all games worth the same amount of points. Just my 2 cents
Both are really interesting ideas. I’d like one of them to be instituted over the current system. What’s sad is that I think anything that keeps teams in the playoff hunt for longer is probably not going to be changed (sigh).
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
yeah wouldn’t mind this either. certainly better than what we have.
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
by BoulderDodger on Jan 27, 2011 8:03 PM PST up reply actions
I still think all games should be worth 3 points.
Win in regulation + 3 points
Win in OT (and upped to 10 minutes) = 2 and half points
Win in SO = 2 points
Lose in SO = 1 point
Lose in OT = half a point
Lose in regulation = no points
I know it;s weird seeing half points rewarded, but that;s the only way I can think of to make every game worth 3 points. It just stupid that some games equal a total 3 points, while others are only 2. So only other thing is going back to all games worth 2 points, with the winner, no matter how getting them and loser getting nothing.
the Kings are still undefeated this season
really interesting how the Kings/ Coyotes are screwed/ helped by the Bettman point. the Kings have only 1 OT point in that column, compared to 29th and 28th New York (Rangers) and New Jersey who have 3.
winning = gooooooooood.
This season has kind of shaken my faith in the notion that good and bad luck will even out over a sample size as large as an 82-game season. Here we are, past the halfway point, and the Kings are still screwed relative to their rivals by the fact that they have not benefitted from the Bettman point.
But OTOH, one could say that since winning/losing in the SO is mainly a matter of luck, the Kings have actually had good luck in that they have won so many shootouts relative to losses. That is, the coin came up heads disproportionately often rather than tails.
I don’t know offhand, have the Kings played relatively few OT/SO games? That would help account for their dearth of Bettman points.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
by DougX on Jan 27, 2011 3:08 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
i know generally its a coin flip, but do you think Jonathan Quick is just that good on shootouts? I don’t have the stat in front of me, but I know this year he’s been near flawless. From what I remember he was pretty good last year as well. Then again I’m just going off of memory, but I think 2 years worth of sample size would be good enough
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
by BoulderDodger on Jan 27, 2011 8:02 PM PST up reply actions
Could be, could be
I won’t dismiss out of hand that maybe some goaltenders are just better one-on-one than others. In fact, intuition tells me that that’s probably true.
However, I remember that Quisp recently cited a study that showed that elite goal scorers don’t actually score at a higher rate in shootouts. The point being that skill probably isn’t the determining factor in SOs — which seemed counter-intuitive to me, but there it was.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
i know generally its a coin flip, but do you think Jonathan Quick is just that good on shootouts?
However, I remember that Quisp recently cited a study that showed that elite goal scorers don’t actually score at a higher rate in shootouts.
I don’t think it’s so much that goaltenders are all the same at shootouts (some are obviously better than others), but the fact that they face maybe 30 shootout attempts over an 82-game season against completely different shooters means that you can’t really look at the data to discover anything meaningful. The sample size is too small. I’d be comfortable saying that Jonathan Quick is one of the better shootout goaltenders in the league since he’s so bendy and fast, though.
Remember how bad Labarbera was at shootouts?
Taylor Morgan: "My abortion was botched!"
Teemu Selanne: "Wow. That sounds awesome."
by DodgerBlueBalls on Jan 28, 2011 8:46 AM PST up reply actions
"Remember how bad Labarbera was at shootouts?"
you’re being too nice.
“remember how we always felt like the Kings were wasting the other team’s time with LaBarbera in net during shootouts?”
“remember how the Kings always seemed to pad the other team’s shootout stats with LaBarbera?”
“remember how we felt like the Kings should just give the extra point away with LaBarbera in the shootout?”
by uvgt2bkdnme on Jan 28, 2011 10:00 AM PST up reply actions 1 recs
You mean “No Lead is Safe” LaBarbara. Just wondering, anyone have an official broken stick signed by Mr No Lead?
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Jan 28, 2011 3:41 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
I looked up the shootout win-loss records — the Kings are tied with the fewest shootouts in the league with NJ (7). Philly has had 8. I’ll have to double check my numbers, but I think the average is a little over 10.
Atlanta tops out at 18. TB has 16, Detroit 15.
They have the league average in shootout wins with that amazing undefeated record, though.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Ah crap, I just realized my mistake. It was late last night and I missed that the stat page is for the shootout AND OT win/loss record. The Kings can’t have had 7, they had 6 shootout wins, zero shootout losses, and the one OT point in the loss to Minnesota.
Darn. I will see if that’s listed anywhere else.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Try the kings site. On the right is a column w/“game notes”
It’s all the info you’ll ever want, including shootouts amd OTs That’s how I solved your puzzler last week.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Jan 28, 2011 3:31 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Interesting; I thought that might be the case. So now I don’t quite know what to make of the Kings’ luck, except that it’s clear to me that they are, in some existential sense, screwed by the Bettman point because the have had fewer opportunities for that consolation prize.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
I’ll take 5 whoopee cushions over a qupie doll any day…unless I was on the western conference.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Jan 28, 2011 3:36 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
Bettman Point
I agree that it looks like the Kings are getting screwed by the Bettman point, but it depends on what you consider the Bettman Point. I would say that the real Bettman point is the point gained in a SO/OT win by the winning team, not the point that the losing team gets by virtue of making it to overtime. If you figure it this way, I would say that the Kings seem to be doing rather well with the Bettman point.
I agree completely. Everybody always looks at the OT/SO losses and thinks these are the extra points, but if there were still ties all those points would still be awarded, it is the extra point for WINNING the SO/OT that is the bonus point. Here is the Western Conference Standings without the OT/SO bonus point:
Rank New Rank Team Points Points adjusted
1 1 Vancouver 71 67
2 2 Detroit 66 57
3 2 Dallas 65 57
4 5 Nashville 60 54
5 6 Anaheim 60 53
6 2 Phoenix 59 57
7 7 Chicago 56 51
8 7 San Jose 56 51
9 11 Colorado 56 48
10 7 Minnesota 55 51
11 10 Los Angeles 55 49
12 12 Calgary 54 46
13 14 Columbus 51 43
14 12 St. Louis 51 46
15 15 Edmonton 38 35
The biggest loser because of the Bettman point actually appears to be Phoenix who would jump up from sixth to a tie for second. What actually surprised me when I did this is that things really don’t change all that much. Instead of going from one point out of the playoffs, the Kings would be two points out. Nobody besides Phoenix moving up and Minnesota moving up are jumps of more than two spots in the standings. As for the Pacific Division, the Kings trail the Stars by ten points in the current standings but would only trail by eight in the old standings with ties. There are differences with the standings now being closer within like 2 points for six teams, but the overall differences aren’t as great as I thought they might. For the Kings, they haven’t had very many games that have gone into OT/SO, but the ones that have they have won so they rank tied for 12th with five other teams for OT/SO wins with 6 bonus points gained this year.
Obviously this isn’t a perfect comparison because strategies would be different at the ends of games if there were still ties and things could change. I still like the idea of 3 point games with OT/SO wins worth two and OT/SO losses worth one so every game is worth the same three points.
The "Bettman Point"
while it annoys me that some teams collect these extras points like Kids trick or treating pick up candy it should be pointed out positively that the Kings have been the beneficiary of the extra point provided by the SO 5×. Had the SO been dumped and both teams awarded a single point after OT I would assume the Kings would be in worse shape than they currently are.
Going to OT is a good thing for LA in that they’ve picked up 2 all but once, the problem is theyve lost a lot of 1 goal games and not managed to do so in OT. Phoenix has been the masters of that. It not fair to compare current scoring with that of the days of ties, current OT is 4 on 4 and then you have the SO. Both teams are guaranteed a point regardless so why not go for it in OT. If we had the 5 on 5 with a pt each for ties, every team, Kings included would have fewer points.
Does anyone want to settle 2 pts worth on a SO? Winner take all? Hey in the Kings case Id say yes, but that’s a slippery slope.
Rules are the same for everyone, Kings just need to keep winning and if they lose try to do it more often in OT!
It not fair to compare current scoring with that of the days of ties, current OT is 4 on 4 and then you have the SO. Both teams are guaranteed a point regardless so why not go for it in OT. If we had the 5 on 5 with a pt each for ties, every team, Kings included would have fewer points.
You can compare because an OT win is the same as a SO win so you can just compare to it would have been a tie before for OT and SO wins. You say why not go for it in OT, but the point is in the old system there was no OT. And yes, the Kings would have fewer points with ties, but so would all the other teams.
bq.It not fair to compare current scoring with that of the days of ties, current OT is 4 on 4 and then you have the SO. Both teams are guaranteed a point regardless so why not go for it in OT. If we had the 5 on 5 with a pt each for ties, every team, Kings included would have fewer points.
You can compare because an OT win is the same as a SO win so you can just compare to it would have been a tie before for OT and SO wins. You say why not go for it in OT, but the point is in the old system there was no OT. And yes, the Kings would have fewer points with ties, but so would all the other teams.
Something interesting to go along with this thread
www.sportsclubstats.com is a site that uses various algorithms and “weighted coin tosses” to try to predict which teams have what chance of making the playoffs. It simulates the remainder of the season millions of times and sees what percentage of the time a team makes the playoffs, if they lose a certain percent of the games they play against teams with better records than they have, and win a certain number vs the teams with lower records, etc. Obviously the trick here with accurate predictions is figuring out how much to weight each team, or each “coin toss.” There isn’t a mathematically certain way to do that or we could predict everything right now, but what this does tell is which teams have the more difficult schedules.
What’s really interesting is that, even though the Kings are 1 point behind the Sharks in the standings with equal games played, the Kings have been projected to have a 60.8% chance of making the playoffs, while the Sharks have been projected to have a 42.8% chance of making the playoffs. I’m not saying those percentages are accurate, but what it does tell us is that the Sharks have a much more difficult schedule than the Kings do for the remainder of the season. This takes into account mostly quality of opposition, with a little weight added based on whether a game is home or away. And it’s true if you look at their schedule. February, for the Sharks, they have a lot of road games, yes, but in terms of quality of opposition, they have some games against good teams, but also some against New Jersey, Florida, Columbus, etc. It’s March, however, where the Kings could conceivably gain ground. The Sharks play Colorado, Detroit, then Dallas, Nashville, Vancouver, NYR, Chicago, Dallas, (Minnesota, St Louis, Calgary – could be three big gift games for the Sharks, but even these easier games, with the exception of St Louis if they’re still injured, aren’t necessarily guaranteed wins the same way most games vs Edmonton or Jersey are), Kings, Coyotes, Stars.
So with the exception of the three games I highlighted, and maybe the Coyotes who the Sharks have owned recently, and maybe Nashville, these are all games against upper echelon, or close to upper echelon, teams. If the Kings can at minimum keep pace with the Sharks through February, they’ll definitely have a chance to make ground in March. The five games in April are a little worrisome, because other than the one against the Kings, all four are against the Ducks and Coyotes, and the Sharks could easily win all four of those games if Phoenix continues to play like they have been against the Sharks, and if the Ducks aren’t able to keep their play up, and keep the puck out of their net. However even those games, especially the ones vs the Ducks, aren’t gimmes either. The thing about the Sharks is they got all four of their gimmes against the Oilers in basically by midway through the season, as well as their games vs the Islanders, Senators, and Maple Leafs. They’re very lucky in that they have a 2nd game against New Jersey coming up, and they haven’t played Florida yet, but for most the part, they’ve gotten a lot of their easy games already, which is an advantage for the teams who haven’t gotten their easy games in yet. San Jose has also played three games against the Blues already, same with the Wild. Really San Jose has had maybe the easiest schedule in the NHL to date. To open the season they got to play Columbus, Columbus, Atlanta, Carolina, Colorado, Edmonton, Calgary, New Jersey, Anaheim, Minnesota, St Louis, Tampa Bay, Anaheim, NYI, Calgary… That was their first month and a half of the season, and they only won about half the games. Which means they have to pay the piper down the road. If you only win half of those, then you need to win more than half against the good teams. And they have done some of that, getting very lucky against Detroit and Philadelphia in comeback wins, beating Chicago 3 out of 3 times so far. But they’ve also lost both their games to the Sabres, gone 1-2 vs the Wild, etc I could go on. The point is that although they’ve made up a little bit for losing against below average teams to start the year, they’re still going to have to make up a bit more of that in Februrary and March if they want to finish ahead of the Kings and make the playoffs.
by Kingofthefans...air fans on Jan 29, 2011 5:02 AM PST reply actions
I love SCS
I’ve been preaching their numbers for about three seasons now (has it been that long? I think so). The thing about their simulations is, they use two algorithms, one in which every game is a virtual coin-flip (50:50), and the other which is weighted, taking into account records and home ice advantage.
The Kings are at 61% weighted and 44% coin-flip. The Sharks are 43% weighted, 48% coin-flip. This suggests, as you said, that the Sharks record is tougher, on paper. But I personally am not comfortable going with the weighted numbers, since I’m not convinced the Kings are more likely to beat teams beneath them, and I’m especially wary of assuming they have a better chance of winning AT HOME (see January).
For me, personally, the most interesting way to use SCS is to look at their master chart for each team and look at what happens when the Kings (or whichever team) finishes with x number of points. For instance, in the 280 million simulations, when the Kings finish with 94 points, they make the playoffs 95% of the time. This is a very useful number to have in your head. It tells me what the Kings need to do. At 91 points, their odds drop below 50%.
And these numbers vary slightly from team to team. The Sharks’ odds at each point total are roughly the same as the Kings’. But…let’s find a team that’s divergent…just checked, and everyone is basically in the same boat — at 94 pts there’s a 95-ish% chance, at 91 it’s below 50%. This will change as we get closer to the end. Some teams will edge higher, others lower, in terms of what their final point toal might get them.
Wait till this year.
I don’t have time to really respond respond to this right now, but just one quick question I thought of last night that I’m wondering about.
According to this thread here, as well as SCS, for the Kings and the Sharks to make the playoffs, they both need to go 18-12-3 or something like that. My question is, the Sharks, right now, with everyone playing basically equal games, are a 500% team, with the loser points counted as losses, yet they are in a playoff position. So if that’s true, why do they need to go 3 games over 500%, 6 games over 500% without the loser point, to still be in the playoffs. Is it possible the threshold for making the playoffs this year is lower? i mean if 500% gets you in now, it will probably get you in at the end of the season. Wouldn’t 16-13-4 or 16-14-3 get you in?
by Kingofthefans...air fans on Jan 30, 2011 11:07 AM PST up reply actions
Oh, and if that’s the case, then it seems the sharks have a much better chance than SCS makes it seem.
by Kingofthefans...air fans on Jan 30, 2011 11:08 AM PST up reply actions













