Okay, I'll Play Along: What I Would Give Up for Bobby Ryan
by Quisp on Nov 29, 2011 12:23 PM PST
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PrintApparently Bobby Ryan is being shopped around | ProHockeyTalk
Leave it to Nick Kypreos to keep the pot stirred on the rumor mill. Last night, Sportsnet’s Darren Millard tweeted that Kypreos heard from an NHL executive that Anaheim is shopping Bobby Ryan around to see what they could get in a deal for the former first round pick. With coach Randy Carlyle still in good graces with management, making a trade of some kind to shake things up with the miserable Ducks (losers of 16 of their last 18) would make sense.[...]
There’s no secret that aside from offensive depth one of the other problems the Ducks have is on defense. There’s no stud defenseman here that’s capable of playing shutdown defense and while Lubomir Visnovsky is hurt, he’s a point producer and not a stopper. You’d have to think if Ryan is being shopped around that a top flight defenseman would be their target. [...]
Question is, what would Anaheim want in return? A package involving a low-cost, high-potential defenseman and a prospect forward might be a good jumping off point. We’re sure that Leafs GM Brian Burke would love to get him since he’s the guy that drafted him in Anaheim years ago.
First of all, I'm not giving any special weight to this rumor. If Anaheim trades Ryan, they're insane. But I want to use the rumor as a leaping-off point for discussion. First things first:
Would Ryan Look Good in a Kings' Jersey?
Three thirty goal seasons in his three full seasons in the NHL. Gagne-Kopitar-Williams, Brown-Richards-Ryan? Yeah, that's pretty sweet. Of course, you'd have to fire Terry Murray at the same time or soon after, so that some of these expensive guys can score goals, but we'll leave that for another post.
What Would the Ducks Want?
If we accept the premise that they need help on defense...with shut-down capability? If it weren't for that, I would say Jack Johnson. Pretending that they would do Ryan for Johnson straight-up, should the Kings jump at that?
(I'm thinking Niesy would say yes with an exclamation point, but correct me if I'm wrong, Niesy.)
Since Slava Voynov appears good to go, I would be inclined to say yes. We would in effect be trading up one pick, from 3rd overall to 2nd, in the 2005 draft. I would miss JJ, and I would hate to have to play him 6 times a year. But I think that would probably be a good deal for both teams.
However, what if the Ducks want a shut-down guy?
Well, that would be Rob Scuderi, Willie Mitchell or Matt Greene. I think I would say no to Scuderi, the Ducks would say no to Mitchell, and what the hell, if they want Greene, they can have him. Obviously, that wouldn't be good enough, though. Matt Greene plus who else? Jarret Stoll? He's a rental. So...add a juicy prospect? Andrei Loktionov or Tyler Toffoli? No. That would be short-sighted. I can see something like that happening, but I would say no. Am I too conservative? Probably. I can hear Lombardi saying "you have to give to get."
How about Greene, Stoll and Derek Forbort? I would do that. The Ducks wouldn't.
What if they'll take a forward?
In a Ryan-for-x straight-up deal, the only forward I can see the Ducks wanting (besides Kopitar and Richards) is Dustin Brown. Would Ryan-for-Brown be a fair deal, both ways? Yeah, i think so. But it would be so mean to poor Dustin. Plus, Williams/Ryan/Brown down the right side is kind of ideal, with Brown finally playing the role he's perfectly suited for.
So, I will have to pass giving up Brown. Especially since we'll need him at the deadline to snag Zach Parise. (Joke.) ((I think.))
So?
The only plausible deal that makes sense for both sides is Ryan-for-Johnson. That's a hockey trade. I would be sad but happy. You know, like the Mike Richards deal.
And it would make the Kings/Ducks rivalry one step closer to being real.
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if the Ducks’ GM is batshit crazy then he would deal Ryan to within his own division. but for the hell of it, how about throwing in penner. ducks are the only team he really produced for
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Nov 29, 2011 12:37 PM PST reply actions
Yeah, that was my thought, too: Maybe they would take Penner back?
But I don’t think Ryan would be traded to the Kings, not in the prime of his career like this. If it’s a rule of thumb that you don’t trade a player of that caliber within your division, you sure as heck don’t make that trade with your most hated rival.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
It would be like Jagr joining the Flyers
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Nov 29, 2011 7:28 PM PST up reply actions
Jack Johnson has a 4.3 million cap hit until end of 2013. Bobby Ryan is 5.1 until end of 2015. It just makes sense.
Except for the part about the Ducks wanting to improve their defense.
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The Royal Half: A Kings Blog
A Los Angeles Kings Blog, Now 43 Seasons Without A Stanley Cup
by The Royal Half on Nov 29, 2011 12:39 PM PST reply actions
I'm guessing Toronto
Burke loves the kid and would love to ditch Mike Komisarek. Ducks could probably even squeeze Tyler Bozak out of the deal if they threw in Brookbank
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Nov 29, 2011 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
2018 for Johnson rather. Holy fuck, 2018.
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The Royal Half: A Kings Blog
A Los Angeles Kings Blog, Now 43 Seasons Without A Stanley Cup
by The Royal Half on Nov 29, 2011 12:43 PM PST up reply actions
After Penner and Richards the water in the well is beginning to drop. For now the Kings should be look to at the system and trimming dead weight, not a trade…
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
Unless ANA is willing to let us steal him away.
by BobKnob on Nov 29, 2011 12:44 PM PST via mobile up reply actions
The GM has denied it, but I don’t believe McKenzie or anyone has weighed in.
If true, it’s an odd move — and salary would be a major concern. Ryan is a quality player signed for $5.1. They’re an internal budget team, and they need depth, so they’d have to get one or more impact players who are also cheap salary wise (not so much by cap hit). All the random HF board proposals offering up Cammalleri or Iginla or impending UFAs like Parise are just silly.
Johnson’s salary goes higher than his cap hit in 2014, but still only to $5 million, so it might fit. But can’t a good young left wing who’s NOT on a division rival be traded some time? Harrumph.
(I’m thinking Niesy would say yes with an exclamation point, but correct me if I’m wrong, Niesy.)
I’ll add a few extra. YES!!!!!!
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Maybe I should explain myself a little more.
The way I look at it there are only a few ways of getting a player of Ryan’s caliber. If you don’t have one in the system then you offer up some quality to address a need. It’s painful, like the Richards trade, but top line LW sniper is their absolute number one need. And Voynov can play top four minutes. That said, someone like Ryan on the market is so rare I can’t even believe it’s true.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Also, if there are concerns about Johnson being replaced by Voynov — look at the minutes he’s getting lately. He already is.
Voynov ES TOI 16:20
Johnson ES TOI 11:58
The biggest difference is JJ’s power play time, over 4 minutes. And Voynov can handle that. Now granted, it’s been a small number of games, but he has earned TM’s trust.
Voynov also took over top pairing competition when Doughty was out. Wouldn’t you have expected that to be JJ? I wonder if they are thinking about trading him. Not necessarily a Ryan deal, but in general. Hmm.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Here's where I disagree w/ dealing Johnson
On your last statement about the Richards deal how you would be sad but happy I sympathize because I kind of felt that way at first too. But then I realized that if I disregard all the gossip about Richards likes to party or is a “locker room” cancer that came out of Philly and look at how he really performs then LA got the better deal. Yeah I liked Simmonds. And we all want to believe Schenn might be the next Joe Thornton/Lecavlier power center but he’s still a ways off and has a lot of developing to do.
And Richards has so far shown to be an excellent pick up as he scores goals, is a monster on the PK and has snarl. And he’s a young guy with a great cap hit/contract. So put me down as Dean pulled off a lopsided win for us.
A Johnson-Ryan trade just makes me sad because Johnson is a bonafide top 2 defenseman right now. Voynov is definetely NHL material but is still a little raw. And it’s not like we don’t have the personnel to score goals. They just need to get it done.
by JB_LA on Nov 29, 2011 1:21 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
mike richards deal
Can’t agree w you that we won on a lopsided deal. Not at all. If Schenn fails miserably in Philly which I don’t think he will, then maybe. I can tell you that Simmer fits well w those guys and has been playing on the PP. If Schenn ends up even coming close to his potential then they won’t be complaining at all.
Who comes out on top time will tell, but to say lopsided? Way too early to say that.
Seriously?
Yeah I know it’s only 24 games in but Richards is on pace for his best season. And that’s coming into a new team. I know it’s early but his in his career he hasn’t been the type to “disappear” from one year to the next. And now we’re set in those top two centers spots for years to come.
I doubt Schenn and Simmonds combined will get as many points as Richards at least not in the next 2 years. And I loved Simmonds but I think they’ve been able to fill his spot at least “adequately” enough for now. No doubt that 3rd line is missing his speed and puck recovery skills but I think Clifford or some other prospects can improve to more fully take on that role.
I haven’t followed Philly since the Center Ice free preview period ran out, but he was off to a great start in Philly. He was getting a healthy dose of man-love from Bill Clement on the broadcasts, and the fans seem to take to him very easily. 6 is right: Meat Train is getting some quality minutes, and it’s paying off. First couple of weeks or so, he was off to a better start there than Richards here.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
I think he’s cooled down a bit lately. He’s also 3 on a winning team with an overall +/ of +12.I’ve caught a couple of games and his same old brick hands get exposed trying to handle the puck. I do think he improved a bit from last year though.
Saw last weeks flyers-rangers. Flyers were flat, the only one stepping up was Simmonds.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Nov 30, 2011 6:22 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Well I agree with you. Simmonds and Schenn have potential, but there is no doubt that Richards awesome right now and for the foreseeable future. Sure, we can look back a few years from now and see if Philly got the development they wanted for those two young players, but we seem to have gotten exactly what we wanted from the get go.
Pretty tough scenario
On the one hand Voynov’s emergence does appear to make Johnson look rather expendable when it comes a trade of this proposed caliber, but hell, how many games has the boy really had to prove himself? I don’t have any doubts in Voynov’s future, but at the same rational time, we’ve all seen Johnson’s evolution over the years and he’s finally showing the true signs of arrived development. I’d say it’s a sure thing that Johnson will continue to mature into the kind of player who’s a legit number 2 on even the good teams, and number 1 on any average or lesser team.
Plus, his seven year commitment to the team is valuable. That’s character and buy-in to the team that is the type of intangible that hurts to give up. I was sad for this reason in losing Simmonds, but not so of course with Schenn. He wasn’t on the team long enough to get a tattoo inked. So, losing a great third line RW with potential upside versus losing a legit number 2 defenseman, I’d be more than sad at this trade, and only marginally happy.
And that’s why my play along is a bullshit trade that would probably never be acceptable. I’d go with Muzzin or Greene, Penner, and Kozun. No Muzzin is not an NHL’er, but he’s certainly shut-down and cheap. Penner produced while in Anaheim and would salary back, plus they could use the offense. And Kozun is a valuable prospect and native Californian who could be attractive to the Ducks for marketing purposes. They did draft fellow SoCal native Etem.
But of course for a guy like Ryan, that trade would probably be trumped by other team’s proposals. So I guess I just wouldn’t be willing to give up what it takes for the kid. End of the day, as you alluded to already Quisp, no matter who we have a coaching change appears to be the central issue right now anyway.
Kozun was born here but I think he’s pretty adamant that he was raised in Cal-Gary and is a Canadanian.
I like your Canadanian pronunciations
True, but how many times in Kings write-ups or Daryl Evans prospect interviews have you heard the Kings made reference to his birth in SoCal? For marketing purposes for a SoCal team, his birth here is all one needs.
I like Ryan, but wouldn’t trade JJ for him. A young, skilled, top 2 defenseman > young, skilled top line forward. JJ has his defensive isues, but Ryan doesn’t play on the PK and isn’t even on the Ducks top PP line (Selanne is).
Voynov, Stoll, and a pick or defensive prospect (Muzzin, Forbert)?
I think as we know unfortunately a little too well that one can’t really rely on a coach’s line combos in order to accurately assess a players performance.
Free Marc-André Cliche.
I have Ryan on my fantasy team for the JftC league. He’s pretty reliably unreliable, and he’s not scoring this year.
"After months of reading other people’s catchy sigs (like yours), I decided I needed one, too." -- DougX
by VoluminousTuna on Nov 30, 2011 12:57 AM PST up reply actions
Oh dang it. I know it was just a thought exercise. But if he is being traded, every team will be in on it. And therefore there will be plenty of over the top bids by teams not just out of division, but out of Conference.
We will still be wistful if that happens, though.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
I really can’t imagine that Anaheim would accept Johnson for Ryan…I’m guessing if he is being shopped the asking price would be more like Johnson, Bernier or Johnson, Toffoli and a pick.
I can’t see how anyone could not see Johnson for Ryan as a pretty clear cut win-lose trade with the Kings being on the win side. Johnson is fun to watch and everything but at ES he is behind both Scuderi,Mitchell and Greene this year in P/60 and by far the worst D in terms of Corsi Rel. And then if we go back and look at his numbers from past seasons it gets even darker. Bobby Ryan on the other hand led his team (amongst Fs) in both P/60 (also 14th in the entire league) and Corsi rel (10th in the entire league).
Maybe Johnson would thrive under a different system or improve mightily over the years but going off empirical evidence it’s not even close.
Free Marc-André Cliche.
by Robert_P. on Nov 29, 2011 3:21 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Cam Fowler is basically Jack Johnson except he’s 5 years younger. The Ducks aren’t trading Ryan and if they traded him to the Kings for Jack Johnson I’d let Earl Sleek kick me in the balls every day for the rest of my life.
Bob McKenzie said they’re listening to offers, but more in an “exploring a possible option” phase. I was surprised. He pegged the asking price as a top 4 defenseman, a real good forward, plus good prospect or first round pick. I imagine they’d all have to be on excellent contracts.
So there you go. If the return is crazy enough, they might. Not to us though. I think it’d be stupid for them to go for that kind of shakeup, but it depends on what he’s being offered.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
If they do in fact trade Ryan, would it signal a white flag for the season? It’s probably too early, especially since the Ducks were unconcious the final 20 or so games last season. But right now, they are 11 points out of the playoffs and have the worst scoring differential (-26) in the conference. Plus, they are in the Pacific, where all the teams are playoff caliber.
the ducks arent only screwed for this season but next season also. That scoring depth? Selanne likely to retire and Koivu and Blake likely to bolt. They are like the Panthers right now on paper, just unfortunate that they play in the West and Pacific and not the southeast
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Nov 29, 2011 4:09 PM PST up reply actions
A white flag on the season might not be a bad idea for them. I hate to say it, but there’s some damn good talent at the top end of this year’s draft. So I rather hope they become middling.
Underlying numbers don’t point to much hope for that, though, at least in their current setup. Hiller needs to go back to being superhuman, too. Last season’s run to the playoffs was one of the luckiest streaks ever.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
johnson, stoll, toffoli is something i would do in less than a heart beat. Still probably wouldn’t get it done. probably would take something more like Johnson, Brown, Toffoli.
I would be willing to do Johnson, Brown for Ryan and 2nd.
Free Marc-André Cliche.
then I would trade trent hunter, westgarth and ethan moreau to the sharks for a 7th round pick. then I would fire Terry Murray and hire Bruce Boudreau. and then I would switch the jerseys to the purple and golds. and then finally the most difficult decision to make would be what type of champage I would like to drink out of the cup.
Free Marc-André Cliche.
by Robert_P. on Nov 29, 2011 4:07 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I like the way you think.
But Lokti also has to stay up in the bigs for me to fully support your regime.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Ryan-Kopitar-Richards
Gagne-Loktionov-Williams
Penner-Stoll-Lewis
Clifford-Cliche-Fraser
Voynov/Doughty
Martinez/Mitchell
Scuderi/Hickey
Greene
Free Marc-André Cliche.
Seriously, Boudreau’s sudden availability intrigues me. Especially since he was kind of the coaching star that the Kings let get away.
But let us remember that he also ratcheted back to a more defensive style because the Caps hadn’t won playing skate ’n gun, even with Ovechkin. The grass is always greener — or perhaps, the ice is always shinier — etc.,
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
He intrigues me too
But then there’s the playoff issues. Why did that team, after being at or near the top of the league for a few years, flounder on the big stage? I could see Boudreau going to a team that’s far off like Calgary or Columbus or the Islanders, but not a contending, or “contending,” team like the Kings.
I’d blame a lot of it on unreliable superstars. Ovi hasn’t gotten it done in the playoffs, and I wish I didn’t have Semin on my fantasy team. Damn autopick…
"After months of reading other people’s catchy sigs (like yours), I decided I needed one, too." -- DougX
by VoluminousTuna on Nov 30, 2011 1:01 AM PST up reply actions
I know I’m dreaming, but when I see Toffoli leading the OHL with 26 goals in 24 games, I don’t want to risk losing that elusive sniper, even for a very decent, known commodity.
that's interesting, because my answer is contradictory.
on one hand, parise ought to be worth less, because he’s a rental. on the other, yes i would actually be willing to give up more to get him. part of that is he’s a LW, and part is I don’t want to have to play brown and johnson all the time.
i guess i should reconsider how valuable ryan is.
A trade like that would be the last trade for quite a while.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Nov 30, 2011 6:28 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
CDTF (Cam Darn Tootin’ Fowler)
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Nov 29, 2011 11:33 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
How has this not been rec’d yet?
"After months of reading other people’s catchy sigs (like yours), I decided I needed one, too." -- DougX
by VoluminousTuna on Nov 30, 2011 1:01 AM PST up reply actions
For Quisp
Hey Quisp, just saw on LAKI a thread (didn’t read it) where they say last night’s lines get good reviews. I thought you’d get a kick out of that. Guess you and TM see things quite differently.
From my perspective, if the lines were as good as he thinks, why did it look like the ice was tilted in one direction from late in the 2nd period thru the rest of the game?
I had to watch the game on fastforward because it was so painful. I don’t think I’ve ever been that pained while watching the kings win.
Free Marc-André Cliche.
We’ll be accused of being too negative and anti-TM if we say the third period was a horrorshow!
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
the only show going on in the third was the Jonathan Quick show
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Nov 30, 2011 12:19 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry!
JJ for Ryan, I wouldn’t do it, and I doubt DL would either. I like Ryan, but I don’t even think it’s an option that would be seriously considered by either parties (even hypothetically).
You’d have to be nutso to not accept JJ for Ryan if you are in DL’s shoes. Seriously, that’s just dumbdumbdumb to decline a trade. We’re set on D, losing JJ isn’t going to hurt us. Voynov will adequately fill in and Doughty can chip in with the turnovers and stuff.
But I don’t even think that would be sufficient to get him over here.
by BobKnob on Nov 29, 2011 8:44 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Voynov wouldn’t have to replace him. Voynov+Martinez would have to replace him with Hickey/Muzzin replacing Voynov as the blue chip prospect/first call up, and Delauriers replacing them as the prospect in the wings.
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Nov 29, 2011 9:24 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
good conversation starter...
….but id much much MUCH rather see Deano fire Terry “offense is for pussies” Murray before trading away JJ…..i mean he is having probably his best season as a king….and fuck i hate any player on the ducks except Lubo…i mean can you imagine the locker room for the first day Ryan shows up? The only thing i have to compare is the mens leagues i have played in where the biggest doucher from the div coming to my team….i honestly cant see that being a comfortable spot for anyone….and im sorry…we HAVE the talent to score…the horses just need to be allowed to FUCKING RUN!!!!
Seriously fire TM…nows the time…shit with the other coaches on the hot seat how is Randy Carlyle bit getting fired, but Ryan is getting traded? This is all bullshit media hype that will never, i repeat, happen. If it does, then i guess ill look silly….and i will boo Ryan if he does nothing short of score 30+ goals and kicks the ever-living shit out of Corrie Perry(the sp is meant to be a joke).
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
all other sp's are all my fault
"It's not illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane."-Alan Garner
I would have said Hitchcock a few weeks ago, but that ship has sailed.
"After months of reading other people’s catchy sigs (like yours), I decided I needed one, too." -- DougX
by VoluminousTuna on Nov 30, 2011 1:03 AM PST up reply actions
Tony Granato.
The Pittsburgh Assistant Coach version. Not the Avalanche Head Coach version.
"We will come with our guns blazing, and we just blazed." - Tim Leiweke
by DodgerBlueBalls on Nov 30, 2011 8:35 AM PST up reply actions
I’m almost certain this is a ploy to light a fire under Ryan since he hasn’t been nearly good enough this season.
"After months of reading other people’s catchy sigs (like yours), I decided I needed one, too." -- DougX
by VoluminousTuna on Nov 30, 2011 1:04 AM PST up reply actions
I don't think anybody thinks Anaheim will move anybody on the RPG line
Management is trying to scare some sense into them, bring them out of their funk…
But if they had to move somebody from that trio, it’s not gonna be Corey Perry… They need a defenseman, badly…
First of all, nobody's ever thought that. Ever.
You're more than welcome to #Occupymybed
Agreed. This is one of the rare times when the “mainstream” hockey media’s rumor mongering is out-dumbing even Eklund.
I wouldn’t diss McKenzie as a source of information. He’s very straightforward about it (though I don’t think people are paying attention to his qualifiers).
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Oh, I see Ryan himself just said he “wouldn’t be surprised” if he is traded. Hello gasoline, please meet fire.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Yeah, let’s do that! Move the Ducks to Quebec City, let them be the new Norducks, and then they can send Ryan to the West Coast.
Mmhhhh no.
by Passemoilapuck on Nov 30, 2011 12:00 PM PST up reply actions
This is totally off topic but last night I got to see Swift Current and Joel Lowry’s brother Adam. In my one game sample size, I saw him good. Wish he could be a King too!
I guess all day I will be thinking about players I wish could be ours.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
uh so I take back everything I’ve been saying about Trent Hunter….because he is apparently killing it out there:
Leads the team by FAR in Corsi Rel and second +-/60 (behind colin fraser? what the hell?) in spite of having the 3rd lowest qualteam amongst forwards. It’s early and thus a a small sample so there’s a lot of noise here but still having a corsi rel that high is probably significant. Go Trent! I guess I should order the Trent Hunter Medieval Times jersey for myself for xmas. The Kings are a weird team.
Free Marc-André Cliche.
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