In Other News: Give Me a ******* Break
by Quisp on Mar 10, 2011 2:44 PM PST
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Zdeno Chara's hit under investigation by Montreal police - ESPN
Montreal police started a criminal investigation Thursday into the on-ice hit by Boston defenseman Zdeno Chara that left the Canadiens' Max Pacioretty with a severe concussion and cracked verterbra. Police said they are acting on a request by Quebec's director of criminal and penal prosecutions, Louis Dionne. [...] Dionne filed his request for an investigation after watching television footage of Chara's hit, Dionne's spokeswoman said. [...] Asked what kind of punishment could be assessed in a case such as Chara's, she replied: "It's too early to say. That would depend on what charges are laid. That's a little difficult to predict at this point." [...] Montreal lawyer Steven Slimovitch said: "When you get involved in a sport, there is a concept of acceptance of risk. The question is did Pacioretty agree to be hit in that kind of fashion by Zdeno Chara? Was the hit so outside the norm of what is found in the sport of hockey ... that it's not hockey anymore." [...] The hit drew criticism from Gary Lunn, the minister of state for sports, and others outside the league. Lunn called it unacceptable. [...] The league deemed it "a hockey play that resulted in an injury because of the player colliding with the stanchion and then the ice surface." [...] Pacioretty told TSN of Canada he was "upset and disgusted" that the league had not suspended Chara. "I'm not mad for myself, I'm mad because if other players see a hit like that and think it's OK, they won't be suspended, then other players will get hurt like I got hurt," he said. [...] Pacioretty told TSN he thought Chara was intentionally trying to run him into the stanchion at the end of the bench. "I believe he was trying to guide my head into the turnbuckle," Pacioretty said to TSN. "We all know where the turnbuckle is. It wasn't a head shot like a lot of head shots we see but I do feel he targeted my head into the turnbuckle." [...] In a related matter, Air Canada has told the NHL it is considering withdrawing its sponsorship unless the league tightens rules to reduce potentially serious injuries.
I am strongly in favor of eliminating head shots, blind-side hits and intent to injure. But I have watched this video two dozen times and I don't see any of those things in this case. It's not a head-shot; he doesn't even touch the player's head. It's not a blind-side hit; the player is trying to skate around Chara and is in fact facing him when he catches the turnbuckle. Chara doesn't even finish his so-called check. He just puts his arm on Pacioretty's arm around the elbow. And I don't know how you can claim intent on that play without making several questionable assumptions, most of which, frankly, have to do with the outcome of the play rather than the play itself.
Beyond all of that, though, the Montreal police "investigating" the case is a joke. I have no dog in this fight. But does anyone really think the the moral indignation on the part of police (to say nothing of the fans and ownership) is unbiased?
If anything, the league ought to redesign the turnbuckle, so it isn't so hazardous.
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Montreal’s reaction is spiraling out of control. But I can’t say I like how Chara has handled it either.
I think of Scuderi and his hipcheck on Chimera — even though he didn’t mean to come in that low, he apologized directly to the player, took responsibility, and said he’d have to be more careful. I think he even did a video for the league on hipchecks later on. Chara’s just said he feels bad, but he’s totally innocent because lack of intent absolves him of everything. I thought McKenzie’s take that it was worth a game or two was right on. I don’t want to see that happen to another player through inattention. It doesn’t have to be about intent.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
by Niesy on Mar 10, 2011 3:25 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
I agree, in general, with "it doesn't have to be about intent."
But I don’t agree that Chara’s position is out of line, in this case. I certainly don’t think it “deserves a game or two” just because it looks really bad on replay. In the absence of intent, you can’t have a check that’s not even a penalty anywhere else on the ice, suddenly be suspendable because of the turnbuckle. Fix the f-ing turnbuckle. I
Wait till this year.
by Quisp on Mar 10, 2011 5:55 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I meant to say, also, regarding Chara's post-game comments,
he does seem to be a little evasive, but I can hardly blame him, given that the police are investigating (I know his comments came first, but it still speaks to the climate, and the police’s actions at least indicate his caution was warrented). “I shouldn’t have done that” is the kind of thing that could be used against you.
Wait till this year.
I can't disagree more
Goaltender interference (for one) is something that isn’t a penalty anywhere on the ice yet is still a penalty. Boarding is another.
That play falls completely under the rulebook governing boarding. It was also called a penalty when it occurred, so your argument there is shot.
You simply cannot tell me that Chara had no idea the stanchion was there. Just because he didn’t make a violent movement doesn’t mean he didn’t make a violent action, if that makes sense. Just like you need to be in control of your stick at all times you need to be in control of your body at all times.
Chara’s actions were reckless and dangerous and were deserving of at least 2 games and more like 5.
by 88fingerslukee on Mar 10, 2011 6:26 PM PST up reply actions
You simply cannot tell me that Chara had no idea the stanchion was there
You can’t tell me he did have an idea. No one knows but Chara.
Also, if someone checked someone into the net and were injured, would you want them suspended?
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
+1
I'm nobody's fool, least of all yours
by BoulderDodger on Mar 11, 2011 9:25 AM PST up reply actions
i think you're misrepresenting what i said
Goaltender interference (for one) is something that isn’t a penalty anywhere on the ice yet is still a penalty. Boarding is another.
I said, specifically, absent intent,. Your examples of goaltender interference and boarding are interesting, since those are both actual rules in the rulebook. There is no “turnbuckling” penalty.
You say the play completely falls under the rulebook covering boarding. I think it doesn’t. I’m not splitting hairs here, either. Boarding penalizes the use of the boards as a weapon. I of course see that you can argue Chara used the turnbuckle as a weapon (I don’t think so, however); but if Chara had “interfered” the guy into the glass or boards, he wouldn’t have been hurt at all. Similarly, had he interfered with him at the bench, he wouldn’t have been hurt. Interference, yes, but boarding…no.
The whole point of boarding is that the referee determines that the offending player should reasonably have known that the check would have resulting in the player being thrown dangerously into the boards. That’s an easy call to make when a player is facing the boards and doesn’t know you’re there. It’s far less easy (I would say impossible) to decide the player should reasonably have known that the player would be thrown violently into the boards when he wasn’t in a vulnerable position in any commonly understood sense, knew exactly where Chara was, and was in fact facing Chara at the point of contact.
The only thing you’re left with intent to injure, essentially that Chara intended to use the turnbuckle as a weapon. I don’t see any evidence of this. if I thought there was intent, I would be 100% behind suspending Chara. The Jack johnson hit on ryan smyth was more arguably intentional, as those things go. I just don’t see it in this case. Look at the replay. Chara puts his arm on the guys elbow.
I just don’t see Chara’s actions as reckless. I don’t even think you can have that middle ground. Either he knew he was checking the guy into the turnbuckle, in which case it’s intent to injure, or he didn’t and it’s not intent to injure and he wasn’t being reckless either.
As far as it being called a penalty…yeah, it was called “interference.” An interference major. Which doesn’t even exist in the rule book. That fact alone, that the ref wanted to penalize him but couldn’t find a rule to do it with, perfectly encapsulates the problem.
Fix the turnbuckle.
Wait till this year.
I for one don’t have any use for counterfactual if-statements here. Anywhere else on the ice, there’s no turnbuckle. Well, where he hit him, there was one. He needed to be more aware of it. It’s negligent.
And it was a penalty on the ice. It was interference, because the puck was gone. He didn’t need to throw that hit. And if the difference between having severe trauma to the neck and head for any player comes down to a guy paying more attention when he hits someone, I’m going to pick “Let him pay more attention” every time.
It’s not a matter of it “looking bad.” It comes down to whether or not Chara could have done something differently. I think he could have, and quite easily. Given a second chance, I would hope he would act differently. And then a player wouldn’t be wondering about his health and future, drinking his dinner through a straw.
You can’t eliminate all head trauma from the NHL, but you can at least steer players to be more aware of it. The game is faster now. Chara is generally careful. He wasn’t careful enough this time.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
i'm not disagreeing with you, except that I do not think being conscious of where the turnbuckle is is really a reasonable requirement..
You say “he didn’t need to throw that hit” like he intended to hurt the guy, and I really didn’t see it that way. interfering with the player, meanwhile, is part of his job in that situation. that’s what you’re supposed to do when the puck gets by you. impede the player as much as possible without taking a penalty.
it is a matter of it “looking bad,” in the sense that I meant it: the outcome was bad. But that’s not Chara’s fault. I’m sorry. It’s not. I’ve been playing hockey for forty years and have many many times had an earful from coaches about letting a forward by me in exactly that circumstance. I have also checked people into faulty zamboni doors and turnbuckles that I had no idea presented a risk until after the fact. of all the bullshit attempts to injure we see all the time (the elbow to doughty’s head back in october, for example — but there are many examples), i just don’t see this one in the same light.
if you’re saying that players need to have more respect for each other, that i agree with, though i still think this incident is not the best support for that argument.
i am sure that chara would not bother interfering with pacioretty if he somehow knew what the outcome would be. nobody would wish that on anyone.
Wait till this year.
interfering with the player, meanwhile, is part of his job in that situation. that’s what you’re supposed to do when the puck gets by you. impede the player as much as possible without taking a penalty.
See: Everytime someone dumps the puck in Matt Greene’s corner
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
People are giving Chara a lot of benefit of the doubt, but okay. Like it or not there was a history between these players. Now he’s saying he didn’t even know it was Pacioretty. This seems bizarre to me. But we’ll go with that.
You think it’s necessary for there to be interference all the time. I think it was a late hit that didn’t need to happen — just like the hit that caused Doughty’s concussion was late — and this hit certainly didn’t need to happen that way. I don’t know how you skate by the bench and not know where you are. These consequences could have easily been avoided.
I don’t want to see that happening to any other player (not just a Kings player I love) ever again. He’s a big, massive guy, and I put the burden of responsibility on the guy making a hit. The game is changing and I think some attitudes need to evolve. Players are bigger and faster and the hits are coming harder. We’re learning more about head trauma. We’re never going to eliminate concussions but they can be more considerate.
Sorry we disagree.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Now he’s saying he didn’t even know it was Pacioretty. This seems bizarre to me.
I’m dubious about some of the stuff Chara said but this seems 100% plausible. Chara’s planning for a one-timer in the event his team wins the draw, but the puck instead squirts off behind him. He’s skating to get the puck and some guy in red is skating beside him. Chara rubs him out against the boards. It’s not like he saw it was Pacioretty and then decided to give him a little extra something and then saw the turnbuckle and then shoved him into it; he didn’t want the guy to get past him so he made sure he didn’t get past him.
You think it’s necessary for there to be interference all the time
That’s not what I said. What I said was that there are circumstances when you are expected to use interference strategically. But let’s just tease out the issue of interference; interference is not a penalty that concerns itself with player safety or injury.
I think it was a late hit that didn’t need to happen — just like the hit that caused Doughty’s concussion was late — and this hit certainly didn’t need to happen that way.
See, I don’t see the two as similar at all. The hit on Doughty was an elbow to the head where the player went out of his way to check Doughty and intended to injure him; how do I know this? Because, by definition, hitting someone in the head with your elbow shows intent to injure. Pushing a player out of his lane by putting your arm on his elbow is not by definition an intent to injure. You are taking the extra step of deciding that in this context it was either intent to injure or it was reckless. You seem mostly to be inferring that from the history of the two players. I am admittedly almost completely ignorant of whatever their history is, other than I gather Pacioretty was in Chara’s face or something.
I don’t want to see that happening to any other player (not just a Kings player I love) ever again. He’s a big, massive guy, and I put the burden of responsibility on the guy making a hit.
In general, I agree with you. But why is it that no-one has addressed the turnbuckle issue? Maybe because it costs money to fix it, and no one can be bothered. This offends me, and has for decades. An arena (and the league) would have to design a new, safer “transition” between the glass and the bench, and it would probably have to be tapered, and probably would require subtracting some expensive rink-side seats, and we can’t have that…
So when Mr Molson who owns the rink and the team blames the injury on Chara, I am somewhat cynical about his motivations.
The game is changing and I think some attitudes need to evolve. Players are bigger and faster and the hits are coming harder. We’re learning more about head trauma. We’re never going to eliminate concussions but they can be more considerate.
I am all in favor of throwing the book at players who attempt to injure other players. I agree that players need to stop trying to kill each other with body checks (the Rob Blake model — the strategically ill-advised check that hurts people but half the time doesn’t take them out of the play). It has always been against the rules for a player to try to hurt another player, always. The league just doesn’t want to do anything about it. Head shots and blind side hits have always been against the rules. The game will not be diminished at all if the league penalizes all of the above with draconian measures.
I just don’t think the Chara hit is an example of any of that. Maybe it’s because I was a defenseman and I feel that play from the defenseman’s point of view, instinctively, and I am fairly certain that in that situation you would be thinking, “slow him up,” not “ooh I can break his neck on the turnbuckle.”
The problem will be solved only when players resolve among themselves not to try to knock each other out. After which, the league will have to outlaw fighting, because you can’t allow fighting if head-shots are forbidden. And the league doesn’t want to outlaw fighting, because it likes the money it brings in.
Anyway, I am rambling. It occurs to me I am also cynical about the Montreal press/politician/fan reaction to this because of all the truly offensive, unquestionably malicious, potentially career ending hits we’ve seen, they pick this totally unrepresentative incident which happens to have been perpetrated by a European playing for evil Boston. They were fine with it when it was Claude Lemieux.
Wait till this year.
As usual, Quisp is right.
By the way, do you think that if one of Montreal’s players had done the same thing to a Bruin there would be a police investigation?
There wouldn’t.
Worth a read: Once in Max Pacioretty’s position, Ryan Smyth sees no fault with Zdeno Chara
Were a whole lot of Avs fans calling for Jack Johnson’s head when he hit Ryan Smyth into a turnbuckle? Yes. Did a ton of them call the Denver police to complain, tying up the line for real emergencies? Probably not.
I hope everyone knows I have no intention of facing this sober.
If I had to chose between Chara putting my head through the turnbuckle or Jack Johnson, I’d probably go with Johnson. Smyth might not have a career anymore if Chara had been in Johnson’s skates.
by Passemoilapuck on Mar 10, 2011 5:15 PM PST up reply actions
I completely agree that getting hit by Chara or Johnson would likely have different results.
But would Avs fans have tied up 911 if Smyth were hit by Chara instead?
Montreal cops flooded with complaints about Chara
Police say their emergency call centre started getting flooded around 4 p.m. — after the NHL announced its decision.
I hope everyone knows I have no intention of facing this sober.
Yeah, that’s the funny part – “wait… the NHL isn’t suspending him? Maybe the Police can do something!!!”
Wow…. I just realized something. This is just like the bizarro world version of the Maurice Richard riots of ‘55. Montreal fans back then couldn’t believe The Rocket got suspended by Clarence Campbell, following an incident during a game against the Bruins… So they decided to riot and local Police had to intervene.
In this case, Colin Campbell had to recuse himself because his son plays for the Bruins. Chara didn’t get suspended, so Montreal fans are hoping that the Police will step in.
I’ll go put on my tinfoil hat now.
In this case, no suspension
by Passemoilapuck on Mar 11, 2011 12:56 PM PST up reply actions
Forget the last few words, hit the Post button too quick
by Passemoilapuck on Mar 11, 2011 12:58 PM PST up reply actions
What a friggin joke. I’d be embarrassed for my city if this is the kind of “crime” they were wasting their time investigating.
www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Mar 10, 2011 4:08 PM PST reply actions
Montreal is a pretty peaceful city – there just isn’t that much crime for cops to look after. Except hockey-related crimes, like Stanley Cup parade riots and stuff like that.
by Passemoilapuck on Mar 10, 2011 5:17 PM PST up reply actions
Well, this isn't the first time in recent memory that someone has tried to criminalize what happened on the ice
IIRC, there were similar calls for involving the criminal justice system in the case of Bertuzzi-Moore and McSorley-Brashear, too.
I’m all in favor of cleaner hockey with less hazard to the players, but whenever something like this happens, I find it very troubling. No good can come of it. It’s only going to make the NHL look like they can’t handle their own problems (well, maybe they can’t, but having outsiders muck around in what should be an internal league matter isn’t going to produce a satisfactory solution, that’s for sure). And it’s only going to make the sport in general look bad to outsiders. thus hindering the growth of the fan base and hurting hockey in the long run at every level.
I still think that there will be no true solution to the problem of dangerous hits and dirty play until the NHLPA steps out front and center and takes a stand whenever one of its members is victimized.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
If anything, the league ought to redesign the turnbuckle, so it isn't so hazardous.
Bingo. Make it ramp up instead of beginning abruptly. Make it more forgiving by putting it on a hinge. Add more padding.
There’s three solutions to the problem. 100 more exist.
http://inplaynoouts.blogspot.com/ - A blog about teams I like, written by me.
Turnbuckle My Ass
Why is the turnbuckle even an issue? At this point, after all the injuries it has caused, why the fuck hasn’t the NHL done anything to eliminate it as a hazard? It boarders on incompetence and they could be held liable for the damage it causes.
The fact is, it’s totally preventable. It could have been made safe long ago. For example, when silly monkeys like us drive down any freeway, we see giant yellow water barrels lined up in front of deadly concrete apexes. They prevent death and serious injury on a daily basis when cars plow into them, instead of immovable objects (like turnbuckles).
Those “death posts” in NHL rinks can be dealt with in a similar way. Some kind of “wedge” (foam or rubber or plastic) can be installed in those areas. And if properly designed, it would deflect any head or body part away from the post, preventing major injury. In other words, design it so that the turnbuckle would be no more dangerous than the boards.
I’m surprised the NHL hasn’t been sued and I’m shocked that no one has made this a priority. As with most things, it will probably take someone dying before something is done about it.
by wavesinair on Mar 10, 2011 7:01 PM PST reply actions 1 recs
Even if you are with the opinion that there was no intent (I'm not)...
It was still, at the very least, reckless… And recklessness (especially leading to that result) is still suspendable… That said, Montreal is still overreacting to this…
And the police getting involved? All the Canadian police can catch is a cold… :)
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"Have I forgotten to fire anybody?" -Bill Parcells
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