Is Vancouver the best team since the 1977 Canadiens?
No.
And I'm tempted to end this post right here. But I should probably explain. I was watching NHL On the Fly last night after the Kings/Canucks game. Heidi Androl was guest-anchoring, or whatever the proper term is. When it came time to talk about Kings/Canucks, her analysis was as follows:
- Wow.
- Just wow.
- When have you ever seen a team as good as this year's Vancouver Canucks?
- (as her co-hosts reference the 1977 Montreal Canadiens:) I mean in my lifetime.
Part of my reaction is related to an incident from that morning. So, brief digression: I was listening to Dan Patrick on the radio. They were talking about the Sammy Hagar book. One of the "Danettes" was offering the opinion that Van Halen essentially invented the idea of the band that knew how to party. I don't know if he used the phrase "knew how to party," but he appeared to actually believe that Van Halen -- Van Halen! -- contributed to the history of rock-and-roll the concept of the debauched, Bacchanalian sex-and-drugs orgy on tour.
I understand, yes. He's young.
I immediately began making a mental list of all of Van Halen's precursors in this field. I started naturally with Zeppelin (the shark incident, the Riot House, etc.), Faces (who had a f-ing open bar on stage when they performed), the Doors, (exposed privates), the Beatles (tours were described by Lennon as "Satyricon on wheels"), Robert Johnson (murdered by jealous husband), Lowell George, Keith Moon, Lennon and Nilsson (the Troubadour incident, Lennon with a feminine hygiene product taped to his head), the Rolling Stones (pick your bust, snorting your dad's ashes). This is a list that could literally go on forever...
So, back to Heidi. Like the Danette, she's young. She just doesn't know any better. Except it's worse, because there's no reason to go back decades to find a team that has played as well as Vancouver has this season. And you certainly don't have to go all the way back to the legendary 1977 Habs, with their 8 regular season losses.
- Before I jump into the comparisons, I would like to add that last night's game was close. To hear the talking heads talk about it, it was as though the Kings were blown out, or out-classed, or out-gunned, when in fact: none of the above. The game could have gone either way. Could just as easily have been 2-0 Kings at the end of two periods. The major penalty to Clifford could easily have not occurred. Then what?
- So, Vancouver is a team for the ages, apparently. Let's look at some numbers. They are 52-17-9, 113 points, four games left. Let's say they finish with their current W%. Where do they rank in history?
| 1930 Boston | 0.875 |
| 1944 Montreal | 0.830 |
| 1977 Montreal | 0.825 |
| 1978 Montreal | 0.806 |
| 1945 Montreal | 0.800 |
| 1996 Detroit | 0.799 |
| 1976 Montreal | 0.794 |
| 1919 Ottawa | 0.792 |
| 1971 Boston | 0.776 |
| 1939 Boston | 0.770 |
| 1973 Montreal | 0.769 |
| 1972 Boston | 0.763 |
| 2006 Detroit | 0.756 |
| 1984 Edmonton | 0.744 |
| 1986 Edmonton | 0.744 |
| 1976 Philadelphia | 0.738 |
| 1982 Islanders | 0.738 |
| 2010 Washington | 0.738 |
| 1989 Calgary | 0.731 |
| 1979 Islanders | 0.725 |
| 1980 Philadelphia | 0.725 |
| 1974 Boston | 0.724 |
| 2011 Vancouver | 0.724 |
| 1925 Ottawa | 0.722 |
| 1951 Detroit | 0.721 |
| 2001 Colorado | 0.720 |
| 1979 Montreal | 0.719 |
| 1989 Montreal | 0.719 |
| 1974 Philadelphia | 0.718 |
| 1956 Montreal | 0.714 |
| 2009 San Jose | 0.713 |
| 1993 Pittsburgh | 0.708 |
| 2002 Detroit | 0.707 |
| 2009 Boston | 0.707 |
| 1975 Buffalo | 0.706 |
| 1975 Montreal | 0.706 |
| 1975 Philadelphia | 0.706 |
| 1976 Boston | 0.706 |
| 1985 Philadelphia | 0.706 |
| 2008 Detroit | 0.701 |
| 1962 Montreal | 0.700 |
23rd. 3rd best in the last 5 years.
Five years is even during Heidi's tenure. So, if she was paying attention, the answer to her own question would be, there's usually someone with approximately that record, and that team usually goes on to win the cup, or get knocked out in the 1st round, or somewhere in between.
However, since most of the teams on the above list did not have the benefit of the Bettman point, we ought to subtract Vancouver's nine loss points to see how they compare. Down to 104 points, over 78 games, that's a W% of .667, which isn't even close to making this list. My guess would be it's in the neighborhood of 50th-60th all-time. Which is good, don't get me wrong. Vancouver is a good team. I'll even go so far as to call them very, very good. But it's ridiculous to compare them to historically unstoppable teams, like the 1977 Habs. They're more comparable to the 2009 Sharks. And we know what happened to them.
I remember those Montreal teams. In addition to their absurd records, there was a sense, when you were playing them, that no matter what the situation was at that moment, no matter what the score was, there was no doubt that Montreal was going to win. You just knew that whatever lead you had was vapor and they were about to decide to stop toying with you and then you were doomed. Vancouver, on the other hand (and like San Jose and other teams who have never won -- yes, the Kings included, even more so), if they fall behind even for a period in the playoffs, everyone in Canuck nation will be chewing off their own fingers in paralytic terror that their team is going to let them down, as they always do. The Habs of old were more like a pool hustler who lets you win a few games before the betting starts.
It's almost enough to wish Anaheim would finish 8th. See, that's a win-win for me.
(Almost forgot, here's a graph of those .700+ finishes, over time. Click through for higher-res version.)
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They are a good team in a time of parity in the league. Lose one of the sisters in the playoffs and the whole thing will come crashing down. Heck the Kings have taken 4 pts agains them this year. I guess that means the Kings must be the 2nd best team since the 77 Habs? Also, look at the ugly division they are in. They will be the only team in the division to make the playoffs and 2 will be 2 of the 3 worst teams in the league. Padded stats….
Thank you.
Especially for pointing out the Bettman point. Let’s not forget also that they play in far-and-away the worst division in the league. The northwest today is as bad as the Southeast was 4 years ago, if not worse. The two worst teams in the league are in that division (Edmonton and Colorado). And Minnesota and Calgary have both been bad-to-average most of the year (Calgary was pretty good for a while, admittedly).
The 2002 Red Wings would mop the floor with this Canucks team. Same goes for the 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2007, 2008, and 2009 versions of that team.
The 1996 Avalanche would crush them. Oh yeah and so would the 2001 Avs.
How about the Devils dynasty of 1994-2003?
The New York Islanders of the early ’80s were incredible.
The 1991-93 Penguins, anyone?
Oh and then there are THE FUCKING EDMONTON OILERS. The 84, 85, 86, 87, and 88 Oilers teams would murder this Cancucks team.
For anyone to suggest that a team that has not won a single playoff game should be considered great is fucking offensive. Ask last year’s Caps how much regular season dominance means. They were better than this year’s Canucks, played in a tougher division, and scored more points. Then they got beat by an 8th seed.
I have never hoped for a team to get upset in the first round this badly before (well maybe the quacks a few years ago), just to show these idiots.
Wow Garrett.
Fact is, without Bettman points, or with them, no team in the expansion era, not one, not the Oilers that you say would “murder” this team.
Not one has been #1 in PK,PP, GF and GA. Oh, and F/O % too.
Those stats have nothing to do with Bettman points. Not one. They do have to do with a team that is hitting heights no other team has hit.
We know its the regular season. But it looks like the green eyed monster is coming out my friend.
The 77-78 Canadians had #1 in GF and GA.
The 80-81 Islanders had #1 in PK and PP.
But no one has had all 4, and we are throwing in F/O %. Not the Wings, Devils, Avs,Oilers,Penguins,Canadians,or anyone else.
You are making some pretty bold pronouncements for something that will never happen. We are talking about how THIS team THIS year measures up. Statistically, they are making history.
Why’s it bother you so much?
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
Who cares about those statistics? They play 12 games this season against the 2 worst teams in the NHL. All of those stats are influenced by that. First on the PP is really not that impressive when you consider that Colorado and Edmonton rank 29th and 30th nd they have gotten to prey on those two all season long. Oh and the Oilers have the league’s worst power play so the Canucks have gotten to stop that all season.
Who is at the bottom of the league in GF? Well Edmonton is 28th and Minnesota is 26th. They just don’t score goals. It’s not because they play Vancouver so much. Vancouver benefits from getting to play them. And in giving them up Edmonton and Colorado are also at the very bottom with Calgary ranking 23rd. Again, the Canucks benefit an awful lot from playing in the Northwest Division.
There is no question the Canucks are a good hockey team. I’m not arguing against that. Quisp is not arguing against that. They have played well all season long and in fact have suffered some big injuries. But if someone is going to claim that they may be the best team in generations I am going to point out the fact that the bulk of their competition this season has been underwhelming.
Do you honestly think, Dan, that this Canucks team would defeat any of the big dynasty teams I mentioned?
Absolutely.
They would be great games. But of course they would. Maybe not every one, but those are awesome teams.
You are just discounting blithely the fact that they are probably going to do something that NO OTHER TEAM has ever done in the past 40 years plus. None of those dynasty teams.
The division argument is weak too. They don’t “benefit a lot” from anything to do with the NW. I gave you the numbers below.
(Might I add that the Oilers have a 7-10-2 against the Central, beat the Hawks twice at home, and the Wild have a 9-8-2 against the Pacific )
I never said the best team in generations, you guys did. I said, this team has a great opportunity to do something that NO other dynasty team has ever done.
It has little to do with playing the NW, Bettman points, or anything else.
It does have to do with them being a very good hockey team.
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
Oh look at that they are no longer leading the league in goals per game or penalty killing. And with Boston, Nashville, and Los Angeles all playing very meaningful games down the stretch the odds are one of them, at least, will take over the defensive lead.
They can have the power play.
That sounds jealous, was that jealous?
Oh, thats right, I forgot you hate us Garrett.
;-)
Kicking the Oilers around in their own rink should help the numbers on Tuesday…then just the Wild and Flames that will probably be out by then.
Could be number padding time…
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "It was the Canucks' worst loss in a month. The victory moved the Oilers within 54 points of Vancouver." Van Sun sums up loss to Oil succinctly 4/3/11
The Outsiders!
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Apr 1, 2011 4:44 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
Hell, even Elvis and Johnny Cash were partying like there was no tomorrow.
There is greatness in all of us, but only those who work hard and take responsibility for themselves realize it.
by Surfdudeken03 on Apr 1, 2011 5:24 PM PDT up reply actions
The Habs in the late ’70s was about the Vanadian equivalent of American manifest destiny.
You knew at some point the Habs would get around to steamrolling your team. The Vanadian equivalent of manifest destiny.
Like the US it was a matter of resources…and they always got the pick of the Quebec litter.
EVH indeed….Gimme Shelter from that crap.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Apr 1, 2011 4:42 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
Vanadian: Mobile Device oversight due to posting review by same set of eyes that witnessed the Stones in the ’60’s.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Apr 1, 2011 5:17 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m going way out on a limb here and suggesting that Heidi was not selected for the profound depth of her hockey knowledge.
I couldn’t bare to watch her on the fly. I’m just getting used to her being a rink side reporter. When I saw I immediately thought, “train wreck” and turned the channel (yes, I’m one of the few who drive by the accident on the freeway without looking). So why on earth is she on the fly anyway? Her obvious beauty combine with? With what? Uhhh, nothing.
Vancouver’s the benchmark this year, for better or worse. They’ve done an outstanding job playing through a litany of injuries and still staying the best. As for last night, the game I watched had the Canucks with a ton of puck possession. There was little sustained pressure by the Kings. They hung, but I do think it was clear who the better team was. Sure it could have gone either way, but all things being equal, the Canucks are going to win most of those games, just as they have proven all season long.
I only hope for one thing: Not to play them in the first round.
i agree re puck possession to a point, however, a team of frolovs still needs to score
they were kept to the outside quite a bit. their first two goals were on rushes, not puck possession type plays. the third goal was ref inspired.
Wait till this year.
Puck possession is a key indicator, regardless of where and how. It almost always tells the story.
Overall shot attempts is just staggering: Van – 71 shots, Kings – 34 shots
13 5on5 shots for the Kings, 27 5on5 shots for the Canucks.
In just about ever category that matters, the game was not close…yet, sure, the Kings could have stolen it.
Wish I could find zone-time stats. I suspect it was also vastly skewed to the north.
I don't think anybody fears this Vancouver team
Kings have played them fairly tough this year. If I was a gambling man, I’d put money on Anaheim or Chicago to knock them out of the first round if that’s the way it ends up. Without Malhotra and possibly Hamhuis, there are a lot of holes on that team, not to mention Luongo’s well publicized mediocrity in the playoffs.
I'll take that bet.
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
I'll take
that bet too.
Morrow on Twins: (shakes head) "You know what they're going to do and you still can't do anything about it"
C Henrik Sedin #33: Vancouver Canucks Captain, 2010 Art Ross Trophy Winner and 2010 Hart Memorial Trophy Winner.
Nucks Misconduct's official black guy and first line center (Twitter's 1st line center also).
by Chuckles Canuckles on Apr 2, 2011 12:05 AM PDT up reply actions
They need to win out just to catch last year's Presidents cup winner
…and look how they fared.
CAVEATON MONTREAL'S TEAMS OF THE PAST
While Montreal in the long ago years had tremendous teams, there were underscoring reasons. First the league office was in Montreal. Montreal NEVER played back to back games in those days. Finally and most important, Montreal was given every year a BONUS pick before the annual draft or whatever process was used to sign junior players. They had first choice to draft or sign a Quebec player who would not be exposed to other teams. And so, they easily procured many top Quebec players each and every year for many years and was the backbone and primary reason for their success. The NHL allowed them to pick and sign the best available player basically for many consecutive years as the NHL in those days cowtailed to Montreal in every respect. Those are the facts behind their success. Check it out.
Please read
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2009/8/1/972138/debunking-the-canadiens-french
Money quote: “If the myth were true, the Canadiens would have also snapped up Jean Ratelle, Rod Gilbert, and Gil Perreault among others.”
by Delicious Pundit on Apr 1, 2011 5:22 PM PDT up reply actions
Exactly. And the Norris wasn’t exactly the most difficult division in the late 70’s. Kinda like Vancouver now.
By the way…I felt the game was a lot closer then it seemed. Some of the calls were questionable however…and seemed to weight against LA…of course..
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
13-5-2 against the Pacific. LA is 10-7-2 against their own division
12-5-3 against the Central, Kings 9-11.
The 16-2-2 against the NW IS kinda gaudy, as is the Kings 15-3-2.
But you don’t get to #1 in the regular season without being a great team.
The playoffs are the big thing of course…and we are all excited.
But that “weak division” talk is…frankly…weak. Canucks are #1 because they earned it.
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
i agree vancouver's numbers are excellent
i just think it’s hyperbole to compare them to the greatest team or teams ever. after they win the cup, then the comparison conversation can start.
Wait till this year.
Did I do that?
I said, they have the opportunity to do something NONE of those teams have done.
Finish #1 in everything.
That has little to do with playing the NW, or any other division.
Nothing to do with Bettman points.
Why do you think none of those great generational team ever did it? Because its hard. They may have dominated defensively like the Devils…offensively like the Oilers. Overall just completely dominate like the 77-78 Canadians.
But a team like the Canucks finishing first in everything shows them to be a very strong, complete team.
If any team this year can beat them 4 out of 7, I tip my hat to them. They are probably going to win the Cup.
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
No, you didn’t…. blog lead in is initially about a young commentator, Heidi Androl, saying that on a televised show.
Vancouver is very good but alls fair until they they do the deed.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Apr 2, 2011 7:06 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
by the way, the real reason the weak division argument is true is that not only do the canucks get to play nw division teams 6 times each
but they don’t have to play vancouver at all!
Wait till this year.
BTW
I gave you those numbers to show you that they dominated everyone, not just the NW.
Winning at home last night against the Kings tied them with the number of wins they have on the road at 26 each.
Thats impressive too.
No offense, but I hope the Kings drop to eighth, because we know the Canucks will be in #1 position.
We, Kings and Canuck fans, would benefit from a 1st round series that would only be topped by the Canucks meeting the Hawks in the first round.
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
Oh yes, I can hardly wait for another steaming dollop of asshat conspiracy theories about Mike Murphy and the League office conspiring to throw the series to the Kings… with the help of the Freemasons and government mind control lasers…
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
by DougX on Apr 1, 2011 11:25 PM PDT up reply actions 4 recs
You guys have mind control lasers in the US!?
Cool, we just have a gov’t run network that shows hockey all the time.
Lets us have summers off, like teachers, but as soon as it gets cold…
Nuck’s Misconduct Bishop, 1st United Church of Luongod, "Ninety-five per cent of this team has been through playoff failure and we don't want to be part of that anymore. I don't think it's about learning anymore; we've learned enough." Daniel with his eye on the prize. 03/31/11
a quick eyeballing of team schedules tells me that
vancouver’s record against likely playoff teams: 16-20
kings’ record: 20-20
Wait till this year.














