Somebody else's thoughts on somebody else's system
Bourne Blog: Lightning can’t become slaves to their system - Puck Daddy - NHL Blog - Yahoo! Sports
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned by anyone else or not, but Guy Boucher likes his team to play a 1-3-1 in the neutral zone. [...] The 1-3-1 is a nice, active system; but like all systems, it can be beat if an opponent executes a few [specific] maneuvers.
In this case, a well-timed chip and support with speed can leave a team with puck possession while heading towards the offensive zone, and that lucky player may occasionally find himself facing a lone defender on the backend.
Rotation has to be flawless to stop that.
Successful teams are usually adept at making adjustments. When a forward is bringing the puck up the ice and he knows exactly what defensive scheme he's up against, it becomes a matter of simple execution; and simple execution is far easier to accomplish than having to read and react, then execute.
[...]
The thing is, I think the Kings have managed the worst of both worlds. When things fall apart, it seems that (1) opponents have solved the system and the defensive system doesn't adapt, while (2) frustrated by lack of offense, players abandon the system in order to "put the team on their shoulders," which results in defensive break-downs. The first is the system not working because of a failure to adapt; the second is the system not working because of a failure of execution.
From what I can tell, there seem to be two types of coaches in the NHL. The Bruce Boudreau type [...] which is that particular type who sticks to his guns, almost stubbornly. The focus is on his team, not theirs. He says "this is the way we play, and our opponent is going to have to find a way to beat us. We're a good enough team that if we execute our game plan we'll win." He famously switched his team's style of play after losing in the opening round of playoffs as a one-seed in 2010 to a more defensive game plan ... and less famously stuck with it despite feeling the series slipping away in 2011.
That pretty well describes the feeling I had during the Big Slump in January. No matter how bad things got, we were just going to stick to the plan till it started working again. Which it did. After about a month.
The other type of coach is [Mike Babcock], who requires his teams to be able to play whichever way the game or series is unfolding. [...] I'm always baffled when it's considered "weakness" to pay attention to how your opponent is playing and adjust. I've played on a team in which our coach had different lines employ different neutral zone forechecks (both involved having two defenders back, so they didn't have to change the way they played). He took what he deemed to be our two faster lines and had them play a 2-1-2, and left the others to sit back in a 1-2-2. After seeing that the lines using two forwards to pressure the D were causing turnovers, he asked the other two lines to play the same system. It's about tailoring your style to frustrate your opponent, and changing when it becomes necessary.
Guy Boucher and the Lightning['s] weakest link is their D-core, as Tyler Seguin so generously pointed out for us [...]. The 1-3-1 can be good for slowing forwards up through the neutral zone, but when it breaks down it puts more pressure on the last man back — if he's not rock solid, you're roasted. [T]he Bruins know what they're up against in the neutral zone [and so] they've been able to [defeat the Lightning's system] far too often through two games. That [last man] D-man is supposed to have help back there with proper rotation of course, but things don't always go as planned. You can always revert back to what you've been running all year, but anytime you give up six goals in a playoff game, a number of which came off rush chances, it may be time to throw a different look at your opponent for a period or two. Tampa has as good a shot as anyone to win a Stanley Cup this year [if they don't] get stuck in a rut. They already beat one team who did that this year -- they should know not to follow suit.
I don't really know if any of this applies to the Kings or not. I kind of think it does, but I admit I haven't put my finger on anything I can really articulate yet. I am more sure of the symptoms, specifically the gigantic January slump, the roller-coaster streak/slump personality of the team over the last two seasons, and the playoff game 3 and 4 collapses. I don't know if that's a systems issue, a leadership issue, a coaching issue, a personnel issue, or just growing pains.
That reminds me that I haven't yet argued the "growing pains" argument in explanation of the Kings' "issues" (the last part of the "what's broken" string of posts). I'll get on that this weekend. Meanwhile, I'm eager to hear your thoughts on this. I don't think it's black-and-white Murray-bad Penner-good or Doughty-fat Murray-good, or Brown-good Lombardi-bad, or whatever hero/scapegoat combo is out there. I would like to have something to hang my hat on, and so far I don't.
Your turn.
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I feel like...
it’s easier to identify this sort of a problem as key in a 7 game series against the same team, whereas the Kings prolonged losing streak (or streaks) is less one issue and more of a multitude of things. It’s hard to put a finger on it but it feels like, even in games the Kings win, sometimes they’re just treading water, doing just enough to barely win or barely lose. Maybe this is a symptom of the strong defense and weak offense. I never got the feeling like any one of the Kings could just have an explosive game at any point in the season, even Kopitar. It’s like everyone had an even spread for the whole season, contributing enough for their share, but never more than enough on one given night.
At least as far as the players go, I guess maybe that’s a problem I would identify: no heros. For the Sharks at least, it was like “tonight’s Clowe’s night” or “Pavelski took over”, but with the exception a here or there, the Kings offense seemed like ‘just enough to keep their heads above water’ most nights.
I dunno. I’m rambling.
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by Great Ice-Pectations on May 20, 2011 6:11 PM PDT reply actions
no you're not
rambling. I think your observations are very astute actually. I said in my post below that I wanted to make a second point (before I had read your post), and while I was gonna go in a slightly different direction, it would link very strongly with your ideas.
It doesn’t really take a genius when you think about it. All you have to do is watch the playoffs. One night it’s Kesler putting the team on his back, another night it’s incredibly Tyler Seguin, another night it’s sort of a triangle between Roloson and Lecavalier, St. Louis or Stamkos. You’ve already mentioned the story w the Sharks. And we see also what happens when those particular Sharks players disappear (vs. Vanc).
It’s ABSOLUTELY undeniable, that if you don’t have skill up front in this league you CAN do OK. Just look at the Kings. Look at Nashville. But are you gonna win the Stanley Cup?
Oh, now I’m rambling. But I SO AGREE WITH YOU about the treading water issue, because when people pointed out how we almost beat Vanc a year ago and almost beat SJ this year, the reality more acutely is: We won game 5 because of JQ standing on his head. We won both road games in Detroit this year, because of JQ standing on his head. He’ll definitely do that too. But to expect that in Four Rounds of Seven Games against the best teams? I don’t theeenk zo.
For sure. I know as Kings fans there’s always a next season. At the end of last year it was “We’ll see if their playoff run was for real and they’ve arrived”. That answer is yes. Now I think the question becomes “Can they both as a group and as individuals take their game to another level and separate themselves from the pack?” It’s a harder hurdle to jump, but necessary to winning on a higher level.
www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on May 23, 2011 6:15 PM PDT up reply actions
glad you asked
Quisp…. first thing I’ll say is ‘I don’t know’. As this is written rather than spoken, I wish you could hear my voice, cause hopefully you would hear humility when I say that.
First of all, I couldn’t agree more. I like LAKI, but what I’m hearing too often is exactly what you allude to: this guy great, this guy bad, sack the coach, etc. That isn’t going to solve the Kings issues at all.
However I do find a large part of the real problem uttered surprisingly, or not, by you.
You said: I don’t know if that’s a systems issue, a leadership issue, a coaching issue, a personnel issue, or just growing pains.
To me, there you have your answer. But it’s not quite so easy.
I lived overseas for a number of years and really got into cooking. When a recipe works it’s not so easy to see what it is that makes it work so well. And the contrary, when it’s off, you can’t quite put your finger on that either (unless you’re an excellent chef I suppose).
The tricky thing is, in terms of your comments, it’s a mix of all of these things. I’ll bet you someone like Lamoriello could look at the Kings and have a pretty good feel for what the issues are and sort of make a list in order of priority from your list: Point 1 Point 2 Point 3.
But as he’s the competition I don’t suppose he’s gonna do that anytime soon.
But for me it’s various percentages of almost everything you noted, some of the issues more severe, some less.
So that’s my 10 cents worth. I do want to elaborate on one element but I’d prefer to do it separately so I’ll get on to it in a bit.
I think you’re on to something. It comes down to personnel and training I suppose. Players that are maybe more creative, quick thinking, or at least exposed to many different styles are better at improvising and adjusting on the fly. The structure in such a team is more loose.
If you don’t have those kind of players, or don’t train them in such a way that they learn these skills, you have to play a more tightly structured system so that players don’t have to think so much – they just act. It can be effective, especially if you can get “inside the decision cyle” of your opponent (yeah, that Seal Team 6 type stuff has been floating around) because you can act quicker than they can. But such a team can’t really adapt on the fly – they’re too programed.
It’s like a classical orchestra versus a jazz band. The former needs a highly controlled, top-down structure and lots of focused rehearsal to succeed, whereas members of the latter can feed off eachother and improvise on the fly.
That’s another great post….. very interesting subject to begin with and something that i personally feel passionate about
I like the music comparison. One thing is becoming more clear; there seems no adaptability or flexibility built into the system they play now.
Good discussion, feeding off of a characteristically thought-provoking post by Quisp
I honestly believe that what we are seeing is a turning point in Lombardi’s long-term plan. It’s part of “build from the back end first.” Just as you solidify the defense corps and the goalies first, you teach a young team defense first. But that’s not the end-goal, it’s an evolutionary stage.
The next stage is to balance out the team by adding offense. In the last two years, Dean has added Schenn, Toffoli, Kitsyn and Vey to the reserve list. These top prospects will have to learn to be responsible defensively, but they were not drafted to be grinders. Plus, Dean has gone on the record numerous times this season as acknowledging that the Kings need to add scoring.
Once that next stage is completed, we will see a Kings team with more balance between offense and defense, and, I believe, a more improvisational team with more ability to react on the fly.
The big question that Dean faces, I think, is, “Is Terry Murray the right coach to mold the team during this stage?” And he’ll have to decide the answer by this time next season. That’s why the exit interviews that I most wish I could have overheard were the coaches’.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
Why “by this time next season”? Why not now? Remember the Blackhawks fired their coach Denis Savard four games into their Stanley Cup season. We have a young core with two playoff series experience under their belt, so now is the time to start thinking about a serious run to the cup. If the problem is TM’s system, which a lot of Quisp’s posts are leading to, and I agree, then now is the time to change the system and, if necessary, the coach.
The flip answer is that the Blackhawks are not Lombardi's role model for the Kings
I think the more instructive comparison is Marc Crawford, who was fired before his contract expired, and Terry Murray, who has not yet been. Under Crawford, the Kings were a losing team. Murray has already established himself as one of the more successful coaches in the team’s history, so my guess is that he gets the benefit of the doubt, a chance to prove that he can adapt to having Schenn and Loktionov in the lineup, and maybe another scoring forward of Lombardi’s choice. If there are still doubts about Murray after next season, then his contract will be gracefully allowed to lapse, and he will given a handshake and thanks for his work in developing the team.
Mind you, I’m making a guess about how Lombardi thinks, not offering my own prescription. That’s why I said I’m interested in how the coaches’ exit interviews went. That would give us a hint on how short the leash actually is, and whose neck it’s placed around.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
Well at a couple of the GM breakfasts, I’ve heard DL compare the Kings progress to the Blackhawks.
My point is that while TM took Philly to the Stanley Cup finals with a big, grinding team that cycled the puck, and didn’t have a lot of team speed, that was during the NHL’s equivalent of the “dead ball” era. I’m not sure that is the way to win the Cup in 2011-2012.
with obstruction curtailed, the game is faster and smaller players are more likely to be successful; there is more "room" for skilled players to be skilled ... all of which
makes it harder to be Terry Murray. This is his first coaching job since the lock-out. He has been very successful at taking a young bottom-feeding team and getting them to buy-in to a team concept etc etc and the result has been two visits to the playoffs and two of the best regular seasons in franchise history.
I’m not selling that short.
However, two things: (1) … oh never mind … I’ll save it for my next post, which is all about this anyway.
Wait till this year.
Well at a couple of the GM breakfasts, I’ve heard DL compare the Kings progress to the Blackhawks.
A flip answer to a flip answer. Compare does not mean imitate.
The Blackhawks had to blow their team up after gambling everything on one season, and it was a gamble that could just as easily have failed as succeeded. I think we’ve already established that Dean Lombardi doesn’t think like Dale Tallon, who was the architect of that Hawks team. Dean Lombardi thinks like Dean Lombardi.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
fact-checking
Savard was fired the year the Blackhawks lost to the Red Wings in the Western Conference Final.
by uvgt2bkdnme on May 21, 2011 10:15 PM PDT up reply actions
it is
i would have said more if it changed the argument any. if anything, it maybe diminishes the impact, but then again, not really because the Blackhawks won the Stanley Cup the following season with the same new coach Joel Quenneville.
although, now that i think about it, there’s also more to consider with this parallel, e.g. the Blackhawks signing (and taking a very large risk in the process) Marian Hossa.
QUISP!!
Had to talk to you (via this post). I saw the first period of Bos-TB today. Then I had to go out. Well came home and it was very clear what had happened. So great, B’s up 3 games to 1 and I’m really hoping they can keep up this level of play; probably vs. Vanc.
Then I come home and find out exactly what I’ve been saying for two years: Teddy Purcell, quite obviously the guy just doesn’t have it, never did and never will….. what? What’s that you say? He got two key goals in erasing a 3-0 deficit in the conference finals?
If you read this as that I’m fed up, yep!!
Damn, how frustrating. And your note about this being Terry Murray’s first job since the lockout put a different spin on things.
Put very simply, you need to get the best out of your players…… all your players. Saying so and so had his chance….. for me that is only between 27% and 42% true.
Please don’t ask me how I came up with those numbers. I’m just improvising…. which is something that our system guru might do well to incorporate a bit more. And I also hold DL a tiny bit responsible for that as well.
Well i think the main problem is that it is suboptimal for a team in the process of developing a large pool of talented prospects to be implementing such a rigid system. It seems to me that you would want more flexibility so that you can properly evaluate all aspects of a players game instead of just being able to evaluate how they fit in this one particular coach’s non-negotiable, non-debatable system.
On the other hand maybe Terry Murray’s system has won more games over the past few years than we would have otherwise which has kind of served to buy Dean Lombardi some time with the fan base so that is not the worst thing. Although it came at the cost of losing Purcell, Moulson, and Boyle. I think TM will be gone though if he starts to fuck with Schenn, Loktionov ,Toffoli etc. The organization has too much staked in the upcoming crop of more offensively capable prospects.
Another thing that is broken is Jack Johnson’s defense. I would trade JJ over any of Martinez, Voynov, Hickey, Forbert, Deslauriers at this point. But I doubt that happens.
Other than those two things everything seems pretty rosy to me.
Quite possibly the only LA Kings fan living in Brooklyn, New York.
I think TM will be gone though if he starts to fuck with Schenn, Loktionov ,Toffoli etc. The organization has too much staked in the upcoming crop of more offensively capable prospects.
That is my feeling exactly. The idea that the Kings are somehow stuck with Murray’s limitations because Lombardi won’t change coaches is just nonsensical to me. Dean brought in Crawford to manage the team through the patch-the-holes-in-the-roof phase. He hired Murray to coach the team through the build-from-the-back-end phase. Now that Murray’s limitations are becoming apparent, I won’t be surprised if he hires another coach for the develop-the-offense-and-become-a-perennial-contender phase. But I think it likely that Murray gets one more year to prove himself, based on the success that he has already had with the team.
Purcell, Boyle and Molson are a different matter from Toffoli, Schenn and Loktionov, I think. The first three had the unfortunate luck to come along when the Kings were still in the build-from-the-back-end phase. They didn’t adapt, so they didn’t stick. The second group are coming along at a time when the team will focus on building out the offense; they will have a better chance to shine.
BTW, I would also suggest that Murray is aware that the pressure is on him now. He had two notable crack-ups this season: When he chewed out the home fans for booing the team, and when he chewed out Parse for convincing him to let him play vs. San Jose. I know that some of the LAKI gallery wanted to see more emotion out of him, but I roll my eyes at that. Murray’s most noted asset over the last couple of years was his cool and his patience. Late this season, we saw cracks in that. If his cool is not so awesome after all, then I’d say that limits his value to this team in a very obvious way. So, by letting the pressure get to him, he has, ironically, made it even less likely that he will be retained as coach.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
On the other hand
Well i think the main problem is that it is suboptimal for a team in the process of developing a large pool of talented prospects to be implementing such a rigid system.
It’s useful for establishing a defensive structure and getting a young team to gel quickly, especially if, like a lot of young players talented enough to make it to the NHL, they’ve been able to get along on talent alone up to now. The problem is not that Murray’s system was wrong for the team when he was hired, nor that it’s any more inherently flawed than any other system, nor is it that he’s a bad coach.
The problem is that the Kings are at an inflection point in their development where Murray’s limitations as a coach may be having more impact than his strengths. What was good for the team as it was yesterday may not work for the team as it needs to be tomorrow.
A lot of people seem to believe that the case against is air-tight, and that Murray needs to go now. I’m not sold on the necessity. I think Murray is capable of learning from his mistakes, and no more slowly than most people — remember how he defended his decision to ride Quick like a rented mule, right up until the moment when he decided he had been wrong. Last summer, there was some skepticism that Bernier would get much of a chance to play based on how Murray had handled Ersberg. But that turned out to be mostly, if not all, wet.
I’m open to the argument that Kings would be better off with another coach, but there’s uncertainty any time you make a coaching change. Any time you fire a coach who has been successful for you, you better make sure that you have a better replacement lined up (remember the last time the Kings fired a coach named Murray). Otherwise you’re just spinning your wheels. I’m not sure that I’d pull the trigger this summer.
My guess is that Lombardi is inclined to let Murray ride out his contract, but that he’s evaluating — that’s why I would have loved to hear his exit interview. I imagine he hasn’t finished digesting this season yet (the way some of us apparently have come to a definitive judgment on what this season meant). If a coaching change is made, I’d be surprised if it came before August (which is when Crawford was fired and Murray hired, IIRC). And if Murray is fired, it will be an evaluation of where the team is in its development just as much as it is an evaluation of Murray himself.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
by DougX on May 23, 2011 2:11 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs













