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Whose system is this anyway?

UNIONDALE NY - DECEMBER 02:  Matt Moulson #26 (R) of the New York Islanders celebrates his goal at 9:18 of the second period against the New York Rangers and is joined by John Tavares #91 (L) at the Nassau Coliseum on December 2 2010 in Uniondale New York.  (Photo by Bruce Bennett/Getty Images)

Dean Lombardi used Terry Murray's system to evaluate Brian Boyle, Matt Moulson and Teddy Purcell, each of whom was dismissed because they couldn't do what they had always been able to do well (score goals) while also doing what Murray wanted them to do (play the system). Moulson was never Mr Defense; Boyle tried hard to fit in a 4th line role, and never really got it (while providing some good comedy by looking grief-stricken while punching people); Purcell was defensively pretty good in his final Kings season. But none of them could score while playing D, so now they're somewhere else. To some extent, the issue of why they didn't stick with the Kings is irrelevant since there wasn't really room in the top-six for them anyway. The path to the top-six would have included a lengthy sojourn on the third line, a la Wayne Simmonds, and none of those guys was really suited to that task. So I am not grinding my teeth over the fact that these guys moved on. But I am interested in the idea that in order to get to the top-six you essentially have to prove yourself by playing on a line that plays all-defense-all-the-time. Or else we're talking about the fourth line -- the enforcers, energy guys and AHL snipers line -- where your outlook is even less hopeful. 

Purcell is an interesting case in that regard, because he actually played well on the defensive side of the puck, but ultimately was undone by his inability to score while doing so. He was given some opportunities to play with the big boys, but just as (or more?) often he was playing on the fourth line with fists of ham and just about zero chance to get any offense going. The Terry Murray credo -- which we saw applied to Alexei Ponikarovsky this year, Frolov in years past, Purcell in his last year -- seemed to be "just score anyway." As in, play defense against tougher opposition and score like you did in the minors with no linemates to work with. 

That's a pretty tall order, but that doesn't mean it's not the right call by Murray. After all, these are grown-ups and professionals. A high degree of execution is in order, isn't it? This got me thinking about the assumptions built into Murray's expectations of his players. And I kept coming back to the same question:

Should every player be required to pass the same defensive "aptitude tests"? 

Star-divide

Well, I guess that depends on how the team is built. A team built for speed plays a different defense than one built for size. Murray's philosophy is pretty firmly rooted in the blue-paint/blue-collar style of bruising, soffocating, "pucks to the net" hockey; and Lombardi's philosophy?

I don't know.

These are not all "Philly West" type players

Lombardi talks as though he subscribes 100% to the blue-collar credo, yet his picks and acquisitions don't always support that. Purcell, Moulson, Patrick O`Sullivan, Oscar Moller, Andrei Loktionov, Tyler Toffoli, Viatcheslav Voynov, Alec Martinez, Brandon Kozun, Justin Azevedo, Jordan Weal... these are not "Philly West"-type players. They are mostly fast, mostly small-ish, soft-handed, high-skilled top-six forwards or offensive defensemen. A couple are decent defensively, but it's not the strong suit for most of them.  Why is Lombardi expending so many resources to develop players that at first glance don't seem to fit with the system he and Murray are selling? Why go after Ilya Kovalchuk, who -- as the joke goes -- sees his own zone twice a night, once during warm-ups and once to high-five his goalie at the end of the game. 

Certainly part of the reason Lombardi drafted those players is that, after the first round, super-high-skilled players just get smaller (a 6'3" Loktionov would have gone in the top 10). Part of it is the "best player available" strategy (Lombardi knows he can deal the assets that don't fit in LA, bringing in pieces that fit). 

The problem with that is the cap. Post-lockout, you have to "ladder" your prospects so that they become NHL-ready just as the players ahead of them in the depth chart are set to get their new contracts. That way you have a steady influx of prospects "coming due" every year, and you can keep the team's cap number down. If Johnson wants too much (he didn't, luckily), you have Voynov or Hickey; if Quick or Bernier want too much in two years, you have Jones and Berube. In that context, it makes no sense to draft assets that don't fit your system, because you're actually counting on them to be ready to play within a certain window. And you can't just go out and trade for other people's prospects (the ones who would be a better fit), because by definition those prospects have panned out in someone else's system and those other GMs are not going to be dealing them. 

"That Dean Lombardi. He's quite a character."

So, back to Lombardi's philosophy. I get the feeling he's conservative (or maybe "old-fashioned" is the better label) in some things, but not all. He's old-school in the way he likes to nurture his prospects, in his attitude re character and effort, paying your dues, valuing the team over the individual -- and each of those things is reflected in Terry Murray. But he's also a bit of a populist/intellectual, fan of Sabermetrics and Moneyball, believer (at least in part) in so-called micro-stats, a guy who references Hamburger Hill in his Big Game speeches, who reads Tolstoy in an effort to understand his Russian players, who loves to go off-the-board in his draft picks, who has, for lack of a better way to put it, the gift of gab. 

In short, he's a character. I mean that the way my grandmother would have meant it. "That Dean Lombardi, he's quite a character." I know this sounds like it's utterly off-topic, but I don't think it is. I'm working on a half-baked theory that Lombardi subscribes to Terry Murray's watching-paint-dry defensive system out of necessity (lacking the firepower to play an uptempo game, especially during a rebuild) but only up to a point. According to this half-baked thought, there will come a tipping point -- when the prospects mature to level x, when UFA so-and-so finally signs -- when Lombardi will opt for a game-plan with a little more personality

What exactly does personality mean when talking about hockey strategy?

Who knows? I'm weaving a metaphor that may not work. But let's pretend it does. I'll define it as having to do with being able to have different kinds of "conversations" with a variety of opponents, having a spectrum (Flyer pun!) of responses to select from, depending on what the opponent "says." Not just having essentially the same stock response no matter what anyone is actually saying to you. 

An example of "having the same stock response" would be requiring every player to pass the same defensive "aptitude tests". Personally, I like "systems," believe in the value of defensive responsibility, and would (as a coach) expect that everyone achieve (my definition of) basic competency. 

Yes, everyone has to be defensively responsible. The question is, does everyone have to be defensively responsible in the same way? 

I don't think they do.

Take Alex Frolov. Just by hanging onto the puck like he does, he's playing good defense. Even if he doesn't get off a shot, even if he loses the puck ultimately and the other team escapes their defensive zone. 

I'm not saying that there aren't subtle differences in the way each line plays. I'm saying: I wonder if the system requires lines that are more alike than different, and as a result are easier to defend against. 

Murray's Interchangeable parts

We're all familiar with Murray's penchant for changing up his lines. We have seen that he likes to work with forwards in pairs, and then rotate the third members of the line in and out to suit the circumstance. In general I've always liked this scheme. It gives the impression of a dizzying array of line combos, when in fact the variations are much more simple. Handzus and Simmonds (usually) stay together. Brown and Kopitar. Stoll and Smyth. Or is it Stoll and Williams. Okay, so he changes the pairs around, too. But a nice side-effect of that is that everyone has played with everyone else, and everyone has a pretty high degree of comfort with whomever their linemates happen to be.

But, for that to work, every line has to be interchangeably similar. 

Whereas, if the lines are stable, the system can work in different ways for different units. One line can trap; the next can be all speed and run-and-gun. Opponents can't get their bearings long enough to be able to solve the system, because the system shifts beneath their feet. What works against one line will be fatal against the next one. 

That requires an extremely nimble and creative leadership. Lots of audibles. Lots of adjusting on the fly. 

I wonder if one of the flaws in Murray's system is that, because it requires (near?) perfection to be effective, it demands so much of the player's focus that two things happen: (1) he has no room left in his brain to maintain a Plan B, because his whole brain is fixed on Plan A, and (2) the player is stuck almost entirely in his "left brain." 

Oh, crap. "Left brain." That's like neuroscience!

You should probably consider the possibility that I have no idea what I'm talking about. But here's the thing: the left hemisphere of the brain handles the analytical, the logical, the concrete, the literal. It's the part of your brain that is on line when you're following directions to a place you've never been before. It's the part of your brain that's on-line when you're trying to stick to a system that isn't second nature. The right hemisphere is the instinctive, artistic, creative, metaphorical, unconscious. It's the part of your brain that's on-line when you're driving home and suddenly you're in your driveway and you don't remember all the turns you made. It's the part of your brain that's on-line when you are inspired. When you're acting on instinct. When everything is flowing "naturally", thoughtlessly, effortlessly. Your right brain is where the Zone is. Your left brain is what comes on-line at the first sign of trouble. 

Anyway, I wonder if Murray's system requires flawless execution to the degree that the players are always in a left-brain/analytical mode, and so, rarely get into The Zone, rarely get into that right brain flow when things "just happen." 

I shouldn't say "requires flawless execution" without explaining: every system requires that you follow the system. That goes without saying. But some systems have more redundancy built in than others, so that if someone makes a mistake, there's a stop-gap, and it takes two or three compounded mistakes to cause a goal-against (in theory) -- while with other systems, one screw up and the puck's in your goal. Like being a tight-rope walker without a net. 

I worry that Murray's system has no net. 

The other kind of trust

A system requires obeisance. That's what trust means, when people talk about trusting the system. It's the trust borne of "do what I say because it works." But there's another kind of trust, which would be the coach's faith in the abilities of his players. 

There is an undercurrent of, yes you've scored a lot of goals in those other lesser leagues but in the NHL you aren't any good unless you can play defense too. You have to learn what it means to be an NHL player.

And of course that's true. As far as that goes. Players do need to learn how to adjust to the speed and the intelligence of the NHL game. But it's also total bullshit. Because we all know there are players who don't have to play a lick of defense. Because they score. Lots. Of. Goals. Seriously, if the Kings had one player who could score on the powerplay this year, that would have been worth its weight in defensive breakdowns. Especially in the playoffs, like when you have a five minute power-play that goes into OT in the series deciding game. 

The Dickhead Exception

Maybe if you just built the need for one dickhead into the system, there wouldn't be any resentment from the rest of the team that this one guy is "above the system." Just like nobody expects linemen to be able to sprint like safeties, or the kicker to be able to catch passes, players can say, "oh, he's the dickhead, the dickhead doesn't backcheck under the system, he just scores 50 goals." Maybe even make it a designation like F3. "In this situation, Heatley is dickhead," etc. 

It's always a good idea to pack for both kinds of weather

Before the playoffs, I kept reading how Murray's style is playoff style, that teams like Washington have come around to playing defense first, playing a Murray-like system. And we all know that defense wins championships. It says so in the cliche manual.

And then the playoffs started, and we saw many high-scoring games, 6-5, 5-4, 7-4, all over the league. Run and gun. Track meets. And I started to hear that this was the new way. 

The truth is, we've seen a lot of both. Shut outs, defensive battles, goal fests, blow-outs, blow-out/shut-outs. It seems to me that would be advantageous to play both ways. Another way to say that: you need a system, but the system has to be flexible. Not just that one line is more defensive than others because it's players are better defensively; the lines need to play different styles and need to be able to change styles depending on context. Because there is no one kind of playoff hockey. 

And if, as a team, you can only do one thing,

all the opponent has to do is stop that one thing. And then you're stopped. It doesn't do any good to try extra really super hard to execute your same schematic 100% flawlessly. Because the code has been cracked. And there had better be a new code. 

Just look at the fact that the new meme in Kingsland is that Anze Kopitar is the team's best defensive forward. Built into that is that the Kings' defense fell apart in the first round because Kopitar wasn't there. Now, it's great that Kopitar has learned how to play defense. It's huge, especially in terms of his personal maturity as a "complete player." The problem is that Kopitar is not getting $7MM a year to be our best defensive player. Teams like Nashville, that thrive under a rigid defensive system, are working on a budget, and are using the system to correct for a lack of skill. The system rounds their skills up. The Kings system rounds their skills down

No Plan B?

People say that offense wasn't a problem in the playoffs. But I think it was. The argument goes something like this: if they had only stuck to the system, they wouldn't have needed more offense. The counter-argument is: but if the system can't sustain itself, and the Kings find a game getting away from them...there is no Plan B. 

A team that scores a lot of goals is not even necessarily "off its game" if it finds itself behind 3-0. If the Kings are behind 3-0, and they self-identify as a defensive team that doesn't score a lot of goals, it's a crisis of identity. They can't score and apparently they aren't that good at defense either. 

REVEALED: The Secret to Why the Kings Give Up Goals Right After Scoring

All Kings fans are familiar with their team's delightful habit of "inexplicably" giving up goals right after having scored. This was usually chocked up to discipline or youth or nerves or something. Mental breakdowns.

But what if the reason that happened so much is because the Kings simply did not have an effective sequence of lines to put on the ice after a goal, to keep control of momentum, to -- in effect -- make the goal count.

Why would this be?

Maybe because all of the Kings lines were essentially the same line running the same ruts in the same ice. Some with more skill than others. But otherwise the same. 

Look at it mathematically. Assume that all Kings lines run essentially the same system, but with varying degrees of skill. Now, we arrive at a situation where the Kings score a goal. Just in terms of the law of averages, who do you think is likely to have been on the ice for the goal?

Odds are, it was the first line or the second line. Because those are the lines that score most. But we have already heard that Kopitar is our best defensive forward. If that's true, it would be a pretty f-ing good idea to put him out after the Kings score a goal whenever that is possible. The problem is, we can't, because in many situations his line scored the goal and is tired. 

That's why you have a defensive stopper line. But we have one, you say? Yes, but not one that worked in those situations. It worked the season before, but that line was Handzus, Simmonds and Alex Frolov. And what does Frolov do? He hangs onto the f-ing puck. He may not score, but no-one else is going to score either. 

At which point, I go back to the other point, that the Kings have essentially only one kind of line, running one kind of system, which requires only one kind of counter-measure, which means that an opponent -- who has redoubled its efforts in the wake of giving up a goal -- only has to do one thing right, the thing they've worked out to beat the Kings' system, which is the same system no matter who is out there. And that's infinitely easier than solving a defensive system that shifts its strategy depending on context. Especially when, odds are, its best defensive forward -- also its best offensive forward -- is sitting on the bench because his line just scored. 

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Another way to say that: you need a system, but the system has to be flexible. Not just that one line is more defensive than others because it’s players are better defensively; the lines need to play different styles and need to be able to change styles depending on context. Because there is no one kind of playoff hockey.

I agree. Flexibility is absolutely key to an effective system. It reminds me of the Seattle Mariners. Back in the mid-to-late ‘90s Ken Griffey Jr was the best baseball player in the world and he happened to play for Seattle. When it came time to build a new stadium for the team, they went and built one designed for him to hit lots of homeruns in. It’s almost impossible to hit a homerun to left field at Safeco Field, but they fly out in right field – the spot where Griffey, a lefthanded power hitter, blasted them all the time. The only problem was that Griffey only played one season at Safeco before leaving the Mariners. So then they were stuck with a stadium that played to the strengths of a guy who wasn’t on their team anymore.

My point is that you shouldn’t design a system that works only one way when you can have fallbacks built in for exigent circumstances. The Kings do not need to play a defense-only system because they have talented guys who can devote part of their focus to defense while primarily trying to score goals. At least for the Kings the system can be fixed. The Mariners are stuck with the layout of their field. A new coach can lead the Kings properly :)

by Garrett79 on Jun 13, 2011 2:12 PM PDT reply actions  

Name that System

Lots of Kings fans complain about Murray’s system, but I’ve yet to see any of the complainers spell out, with any kind of precision or depth, just what that system is.

In other words, before this discussion can get anywhere, we need some Xs and Os. Lots of them, in fact.

*Just don’t expect any from me: Never played beyond a handful of pickup roller hockey games.

by Lars H on Jun 13, 2011 2:58 PM PDT reply actions  

Terrific Stuff

I need to find a good introductory textbook for this kind of stuff.

The defense needs to be allowed to jump in because that creates those darts to the net that gets the defenders in front of the net looking behind them and thus opening up the front of the net.

Watching the Canucks (nevermind their overall superior team speed), that’s what’s missing from the Kings’ attack. Occasionally DD08 would jump in off the rush (more as the season wore on), but rarely did Kings’ D pinch deep to support the cycle or drop in from the weakside (if that’s the right term) for a pass/look.

I also wish the forward in front of the net was allowed to back out to the high slot sometimes to, again, get the defenders in front thinking and making them indecisive.

I don’t know that I’ve noticed this. I thought generally the third forward was usually kinda high (to support the D going back), with the other two working one of the corners/behind the net.

Something I noticed in the DRW-SJS series was how high the DRW seemed to work their cycle — practically on the half-wall. I dunno if that’s an accepted or usual practice, or just them taking what the Sharks D gave them, but it did seem to position the third forward in a “sweeter” scoring area, should he get open for a pass. Maybe that’s what you have in mind?

Finally regarding your point about the rush taking care of itself as guys mature: maturation will also take care of the “inflexibility” problem Quisp noted. Their reads should improve, as should their familiarity with a variety of looks (assuming the coaches provide them with same).

by Lars H on Jun 13, 2011 4:56 PM PDT up reply actions  

Something I noticed in the DRW-SJS series was how high the DRW seemed to work their cycle — practically on the half-wall. I dunno if that’s an accepted or usual practice, or just them taking what the Sharks D gave them, but it did seem to position the third forward in a "sweeter" scoring area, should he get open for a pass. Maybe that’s what you have in mind?

Yeah, that’s what I mean. The King in front of the net isn’t really used as a viable passing option, he’s usually used as a screen and a decoy. If the Kings do try to pass to that player, it’s generally about a 3 foot pass through a ton of traffic. Why can’t that guy crash the net and then pop out about 8 feet on one side or the other? Doing that makes him more likely to get a shot off, plus it pulls a defender away from the net for the guy with the puck to drive towards the goal. The Kings often give their forward with the puck 2 options but those options are static; they need to move guys around in the zone to continually give that forward new options.

but rarely did Kings’ D pinch deep to support the cycle or drop in from the weakside (if that’s the right term) for a pass/look.

You know who was really good at this? Randy Jones. Probably because he’d played in Murray’s system for about 3-4 years already. Martinez is already pretty good at it, though, and Doughty doesn’t really need to drive in to be effective because he can position himself up top so well. Mitchell had a couple good drives later in the season. Johnson… I’m a little worried about when Johnson’s going to get it. He should be extra aggressive up top but he’s usually stapled to the wall by the blue line.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Jun 14, 2011 7:24 AM PDT up reply actions  

Something I noticed in the DRW-SJS series was how high the DRW seemed to work their cycle — practically on the half-wall. I dunno if that’s an accepted or usual practice, or just them taking what the Sharks D gave them, but it did seem to position the third forward in a "sweeter" scoring area, should he get open for a pass. Maybe that’s what you have in mind?

I think the most important part of the DET power play is the overall movement, and that is something that not many PP’s have the personnel to replicate. If you watch a DET PP carefully, especially if you can follow and keep track of the players, they move around a lot, swapping positions with forwards. My feeling in general is that a lot of PP’s operate where you have 5 players mostly stationary, moving within their assigned areas, and they pass the puck around to create the cycle. One thing that you see a lot in the DET PP is that the 5 players cycle (or 4, if Holmstrom is on the ice), dragging the puck along with them and passing it as they’re moving.

You will very frequently see someone like Filppula, Zetterberg, or Datsyuk with the puck near the halfboards, and they’ll skate towards the point, the near defenseman slides down the blueline, and the far defenseman jumps down to the halfboards or steps out to above the faceoff circle. This creates two interesting chances, because the puckcarrying forward can pass to the defenseman still on the blue line (who, at this point, is probably dead in the middle of the zone, and can shoot through the PK’s “box”), or he can shoot a pass by his defender, to the far defenseman who left the point and is pinching down and is already in the zone past 1 or maybe 2 PK’ers.

Obviously, the more you’re moving on the PP, the harder you are to defend, but if you don’t have the personnel, you’re probably going to make mistakes and this probably won’t work so well. DET has some of the best two-way forwards in the game, so if they get caught on a shorthanded rush, it’s not the worst thing in the world, and of course they also have one of the best defensemen of all time. I also feel DET has a hard time winning board battles – they’re better served keeping the puck away from you than taking it from you. I don’t know if its the kind of thing that would work for LA, but they better figure something out, cause that PP was horrid.

http://sacrificethebody.blogspot.com/
Sacrifice the Body - Examining the NHL through statistical analysis, reasoned thought, and blind conjecture.

by IAmJoe on Jun 14, 2011 8:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

Exactly. The KIngs’ system is set up for a team lacking in experience, speed and/or skill which is where the kings were three years ago. It is a “safety first”, low risk offensive system which allowed an underskilled team to stay in the game with the likes of Detroit or San Jose and get them into the playoffs.

Now the Kings must decide if their core players are good enough, If so, the system ( and perhaps the coach) must change. If not, they have to get better core players.

I think they are good enough. They may be lacking a bit in speed but, as I said in a previous post, there are no fewer than five players on the Kings roster that have had 30+ goal seasons, and they need a system that allows them to create scoring chances.

by m_and_m on Jun 15, 2011 2:07 PM PDT up reply actions  

I like Murray a lot and I appreciate what he’s done, but at the same time I’d throw him out on his ass in a second if it meant the Kings would be better. I hope Lombardi feels the same way.

That’s why the one exit interview I would have loved to overhear was Murray’s. And not for what Murray said, but for what Lombardi asked him. I believe strongly in my educated guess about what Lombardi is thinking right now about the coaching situation, but (obviously) that would be a much more reliable indicator.

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 15, 2011 2:23 PM PDT up reply actions  

I cut out all the x's and o's in the name of keeping the post under 3500 words.

but i agree this all needs to be spelled out in some detail somewhere. I’m working on the idea of having a catch-all “resources” section with stuff like the reserve list, contract list, trade history, draft picks, diagrams of break-outs, set-ups, traps, locks, etc.. So far, I’ve got the reserve list and the trade history.

maybe what I should do is introduce posts on specific topics (e.g. left wing lock) and let the commenters go to town. I don’t know.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 13, 2011 5:54 PM PDT up reply actions  

I’m working on a half-baked theory that Lombardi subscribes to Terry Murray’s watching-paint-dry defensive system out of necessity (lacking the firepower to play an uptempo game, especially during a rebuild) but only up to a point. According to this half-baked thought, there will come a tipping point — when the prospects mature to level x, when UFA so-and-so finally signs — when Lombardi will opt for a game-plan with a little more personality.

Exactly so. The way I have come to look at it is that Murray’s rigid defensive system was of a piece with “building from the back end out.” The defense was supposed to come of age before the offense, so you lead with your strength to give yourself the best chance of winning, and along the way you teach the kids discipline and teamwork.

From Lombardi’s pronouncements over the last year, I sense that he senses that this phase of the team’s development is coming to an end. Drafting Schenn, Toffoli and Vey; pursuing Kovalchuk; trading for Penner — these are signs that he feels that the back end is in good enough shape so that he can concentrate on the offense. Hence, Murray is now under the gun; he has one more season to prove that he can modify his system to get more offense out of the team without losing their defensive prowess all together or else the Kings are doing another job search next summer.

The Dickhead Exemption is an interesting idea, and I kind of like it. That would actually explain why NJD both went so hard after Kovalchuk when he would appear to be an awkward fit for both. Even though NJD missed the playoffs, they seemed to come around after the coaching change, and a healthy Parise (assuming he isn’t Cammalleri’d) should help them next season. The problem is, though, that your Dickhead needs to come through with his 40-50 goals or that system doesn’t work. In other words, if you’re going to allow for a Dickhead in your system, you need to make sure that he can/will score enough to justify the leeway given him. Lombardi has said — and any sane observer would agree — that effective potential Dickheads are very rare, and they either command insane UFA contracts or the teams that have them won’t trade them for anything. Maybe if/when Lombardi finally lands a true Dickhead, the Kings will adopt a more flexible system to accommodate him, but not until?

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 13, 2011 3:04 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes, as we have just seen!

That’s the risk with that strategy: that you’ve chosen an impotent Dickhead, or your Dickhead gets inj***d really bad (is that priapism, I suppose?) and you have to do without him for a long time. By his nature, he’s a singular player on your team, and impossible to truly replace.

That’s actually one of the virtues of Murray’s system: interchangeability of parts. It’s an Industrial Age mentality, and kind of plodding and cautious, but it does mean that when someone goes down, someone else can probably swap into that spot without too much loss. I think Kopitar is the only case where the Kings lost a guy to injury and really suffered for it.

BTW Quisp, the news about NJD opting for arbitration with Parise makes me think you’ve been onto something in talking about him. That’s why I speculate that he may get the Cammalleri treatment after the case is resolved. So it may be a situation worth monitoring after all.

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 13, 2011 9:51 PM PDT up reply actions  

Interesting points

Dean said last year that the team was ahead of schedule. Since Murray was hired to essentially be a teacher for a bunch of young players, the system he employs comprising the rudimentary elements of the NHL game, and the vets are role models, has this team outgrown the current phase of the master plan a little early?

If so, that would seem to put Murray in a position of being under the gun when maybe he was expected to be before. It will be interesting to see if that changes his approach at all, because if it doesn’t I get this horrible Catch-22 scenario reeling through my head where the team goes farther in the playoffs by sheer experience and increased maturity alone. Then Murray gets hired back because he took the team to the 3rd round or whatever and gets a new 3-year contract to continue an outdated hockey technology, landing us in Shark mode and thus perennial playoff premature ejaculation (kosher with the theme right?)

Way, way, way ahead of myself I know and not actually what I see happening at all, but this whole topic triggers the personal anxieties I have over what I believe this team could achieve with a different system and/or coach

by Uni on Jun 14, 2011 12:30 PM PDT up reply actions  

I terrify myself by thinking that Terry Murray will eventually get fired… and get replaced by John Stevens.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Jun 14, 2011 12:42 PM PDT up reply actions  

I terrifying myself

by thinking that Dean Lombardi will eventually get fired…and get replaced by Bryan Murray.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 14, 2011 1:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

You know you can delete posts, right? Just delete the one and re-write it. I do it all the time. Then I laugh at all the plebs who complain about not having an edit button.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Jun 14, 2011 1:32 PM PDT up reply actions  

Gentlemen, you’ve figured out two new ways to keep me up at night.

Thanks. :-0

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 14, 2011 1:22 PM PDT up reply actions  

I get this horrible Catch-22 scenario reeling through my head where the team goes farther in the playoffs by sheer experience and increased maturity alone. Then Murray gets hired back because he took the team to the 3rd round or whatever and gets a new 3-year contract to continue an outdated hockey technology, landing us in Shark mode and thus perennial playoff premature ejaculation (kosher with the theme right?)

I understand what you’re saying, but I think there are two qualifiers to keep in mind. One is that I get the impression that Lombardi is less wedded to his coaches than to his “core” players. He ditched Crawford with very little ceremony because he was no longer a good fit. He may give Murray some slack based on his record, and he may be allowed a more graceful exit than Craw, but if he’s no longer a good fit, he will no longer be coach of the Kings.

The other is that I’m not so sure that the Sharks’ lack of playoff success is due to systemic problems or bad coaching. I like to laugh at the Sharks as perpetual chokers like everyone else, but the fact is that the playoffs are a small sample size and it’s possible to underperform just as a matter of bad luck, even year after year — or overachieve as a matter of good luck. A coach can always get unwarranted blame or praise based on playoff record. I mean, who is the only coach to take the Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals?

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 14, 2011 2:06 PM PDT up reply actions  

It’s hilarious reading about Dickheads in these posts – it’s coming across like a Mad Lib.

by Choralon3 on Jun 13, 2011 4:02 PM PDT reply actions  

Yes, a sad event. My brother and I enjoyed Mad Libs when we were kids, and they both indulged and helped forge our love of silliness. And later, I spent a summer working for Price Stern Sloan (this was before they were sold to Putnam) as an editorial assistant. Didn’t get to work on Mad Libs; they were doing mostly children’s books by then. They had an office on La Cienega, right next door to Trashy Lingerie. It was an interesting experience, for that reason alone.

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 13, 2011 9:59 PM PDT up reply actions  

Not what I expected Quisp!

This is more. You’ve touched on so many different areas that I feel overwhelmed by the sheer enormity of it. LOL

I have nothing I can add to this bounty of wisdom, and it will probably take me a week to breakdown the plethera of presents you’ve provided us.

Absolutely awsome. Your best thread to date for me personally, and you’ve had some pretty good ones.

by defrim65 on Jun 13, 2011 5:44 PM PDT reply actions  

you're too kind; I think your response (overwhelmed) is mine also: the plot of this post got away from me a little

it’s a big topic and I don’t have a handle on what i think yet. luckily, the nature of blogs is “thinking out loud.”

p.s. you and I both have the (bad, or at least, incorrect) habit of using “enormity” to mean “really big.” It doesn’t. It means “extreme wickedness.” I know this, yet I make this mistake all the time. :)

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 13, 2011 5:49 PM PDT up reply actions  

Nutshell

Line 1 = pot
Line 2 = kettle
Lines 3&4 = black

by Code Red on Jun 13, 2011 6:19 PM PDT reply actions  

Good posts, Quisp & Rudy

The Dickhead Exception. Unfortunately, in my opinion, we have a reverse situation. We waste this spot with Ivanans or Westgarth; guys who can’t score, but “fight”.

The Slot. I’ve always felt that Nashville and LA have similar systems, although they rely more on quickness and we on size. However, what they do in the slot is something I’ve wished we’d do more of. Nashville moves their guy around in the slot for the purpose of getting him the puck for a shot. We always have a guy in the slot, too, but for the purpose of screening the goalie.

Right/Left Brain. TM is controlling what he can via The System, and stresses/emphasizes it because IT IS CONTROLLABLE. Imagination and creativity, by definition, are not. Thus it makes him nervous to rely on that side of the brain. He won’t say to players, “Just go do your thing.” He’s extremely risk-averse. The system is safe. So play the system. And score while you’re at it.

by soccersucks on Jun 13, 2011 9:08 PM PDT reply actions  

my perspective

Hey Quisp long time reader first time commenter love your work.
I’m going to be the minority and asshole hear but for me its like this. Murray’s system to me means that players must play hard and take it to the other team every game. They must fight and they must scrap and that’s why I love it. That’s why Boyle and Purcell never made it here. That’s why the Kings will often go into long losing streaks because when there on one of those its easy to see the fight and intensity just not there. I’m sick of people saying its too predictable it has nothing to do with that. Murray is not perfect but he’s far from stupid and worthy of being an NHL coach. Thanks.

by Totentanz on Jun 13, 2011 9:31 PM PDT reply actions  

Murray is not perfect but he’s far from stupid and worthy of being an NHL coach.

And you’re absolutely right. These days, I feel like I have to stick up for Murray a lot, because I see some criticism of him that’s just unfair. I understand that his system has limitations and he has his limitations as a coach, but we shouldn’t forget that he has done exactly what the Kings hired him to do, and he has done a darned good job of it. I think that he was hired specifically to coach the Kings through Phase 1 (“build the back end”) of their development, and that he would be re-evaluated after Phase 1 was complete.

Phase 1 is just about complete now, and I just don’t see how anyone could argue that Murray hasn’t done a fine job, given what the Kings wanted him to do. The question is, is he the right coach for Phase 2? I say that because he has done such a good job with Phase 1, he gets the benefit of the doubt, which means that the last year of his contract will be all about giving him the chance to show that he can coach the this team through Phase 2. Maybe it won’t work out, but at least he gets a chance.

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jun 13, 2011 10:16 PM PDT up reply actions  

first -- i hope you comment more ... new voices are always welcome

second — what you describe is what i like about murray’s style as well. related to that is the idea that everyone is required to go the extra mile, that there is no gap between the superstars and the grinders, etc.. as you may know, i spent much of the season before last railing against brown in particular for trying to do it all himself instead of “trusting the system.” and certainly without murray’s discipline the kings would nto have made the playoffs two years in a row.

also, as i have pointed out many times, murray is top 30 all time in several categories as a coach. he is up there with several HoFers in that regard.

having said all that, i am genuinely struggling with the various, apparent contradictions I’ve been trying to describe. I could be entirely wrong. coaches don’t publish the details of their systems for obvious reasons and things change quickly, so it’s entirely possible that everything I’m saying is just uninformed whining.

but i do think that when murray characterizes ponikarovsky’s season as a disappointment or says he should have scored more (or whatever he actually said) without acknowledging the fact that he’s being asked to play more defense against tougher opposition with weaker linemates than he’s used to (using QUALCOMP and QUALTEAM to reach that conclusion), it’s somewhat — I don’t know — unfair, I guess.

and i do sense a certain amount of “trust me, do what I say and the goals will come” and then when the goals don’t come it’s “so-and-so just has to be better.” and that’s irritating, to me, the fan.

last: it’s important to put all this in perspective; the Kings finished with 101 and 98 points the last two seasons, and won four playoff games in two series, losing three this year in OT, and not exactly drawing weak opponents in those first rounds. both of those series could have gone either way and both were really undone by the Kings’ youthful exuberance. all in all, the last two seasons have been among my favorites as a Kings fan (I also liked 00-02 and 90-93).

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 13, 2011 11:08 PM PDT up reply actions  

i guess

Ill continue to always be the guy that sees things different. Early in the season Poni was outstanding taking the body grindind and getting opportunities to score just not finishing. After his injury its like he took a step back but I’m thinking he lacked confidence as his main problem.
This team is tooooooooo damn nice. Guys like Stoll Smyth and even Brown while I like them are just too soft and too nice. Smyth bless his heart practically congratulating the other guy everytime he gets smacked or shoved out the way that shit has to stop. This team needs grit and nastiness and much more of it then you’ll see Kopitar who I think can be a top 3 center in this league take over and see Murray’s ways flourish that’s my take. I’m sick of the pussyfoots out there.

by Totentanz on Jun 14, 2011 12:57 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions  

Observation or bashing?

I agree with Murray and Lombardi not being on the same page with regards to prospect developement. How their developed and specifically where the Kings are failing at times seems obvious when you look at the types of players that don’t succeed, but I’ve found as soon as you bring it up and lable it a pattern, your attacked by Murray supporters who feel like your betraying the Kings somehow by spouting nonsense. Seems almost insulting to have someone argue it away, ignore it by saying hind sights 20/20, then lable you a TM basher everytime you try to talk about it.

I do wonder if TM can nurture the creative side of developement, instead of trying to create mindless robots programmed to react, or respond to predetermined situations with a generic response created for all skill levels to compete equally.

 The problem is, it’s not equal, IF, that is not the style that compliments, or accents how a player learned the game. Teaching a player to develope his own set of talents takes actual coaching, and a constant re-evaluation of multiple players, with constant adjustment to the needs of their games.

 It almost seems as though Murray preffers a blanket of do’s and don’ts so that the owness is on the player to learn them, rather than adjust the do’s and don’ts to what that player might need to succeed.

It goes against the grain to have players playing multiple types of games on 4 lines that are created to play the same way on every line.

.

by defrim65 on Jun 14, 2011 10:32 AM PDT reply actions  

well, for the most part I think people take the criticism as it was intended

although there will always be folks who want to turn everything into a bar fight. it’s easy to dismiss points of view that aren’t yours as “hate” or “bashing” or whatever. most people know I’m 98% pro-Murray.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 14, 2011 11:53 AM PDT up reply actions  

I have always stated that I am not looking to fire Murray, just get him to change. I would love to see him open it up, and see how our guys do, let them take more owness on the outcome.

Unfortunately my views some times fall in line with those who just want him fired, so I think that’s where I get into trouble.

by defrim65 on Jun 14, 2011 12:10 PM PDT up reply actions  

Good read and generally agree except for two points

First- That Frolov at least hung on to the puck and didn’t allow other team to score
- Yes mostly he did that but he often would break out of that discipline and try some creative move. Problem is his linemates and D-men weren’t on the same page w/ him so his creative pass or whatever would turn into a scoring change or worse a goal for other team.
- The Frolovistas will say, “But yeah Murray wanted more offense from him and goals so he had to get creative. It’s not his fault he had no help.” Problem is I got sense that the “pressure” from Murray on Frolov to score was one of those standard coach things to say. What coach doesn’t want more goals or offense? To get deep and academic here it’s like Monetary Policy. No Presdent or elected person is for a weak dollar they all want a STRONG dollar. Even though we have and need a weak dollar now. No one is doing anything to reverse that but no one will ever be for a weak dollar. Back to hockey…. All coaches are for more goals and scoring. Would Murray have benched Frolov if he continued to just hang on to puck game after game, not let any goals be scored but not score any himself? I doubt it.

2. The Kings lines all play same system
-Generally yes same defensive style but I think to some degree you oversimplify that they all play exactly the same and are supposed to be interchangeable. As Rudy Kelly says above the smyth-stoll-williams line got away w/ breaking out “early” because either they know when to do it at right time or got more slack being veterans. Also, Kopitar gets slack to be more creative down low in the offensive zone w/ either passes cross slot or to point. WHy? Because they are usually pretty good passes. And if he’s out usually one of our more offensive D-men pair are out too. Also, if they aren’t he’s in position or already skating back to help backcheck if his pass is intercepted. Unlike Frolov who would make cross slot passes to Matt Greene or Scuderi as if they had a Brett Hull one timer in their arsenal of shot options.

All I like your post. Really like Kelly comment breaking down the X and O.

The Zues-Simmonds line doesn’t get any slack. They are expected I think to play the Murray system by the book. They are there to shut down. And it’s better for Simmonds to learn that style first and then try the creative stuff.

by JB_LA on Jun 14, 2011 11:37 AM PDT reply actions   1 recs

I love the monetary policy comparison

yes, re over-simplifying … as I think I qualified all of it myself in the post. the point i was trying to make is that these variations are more along the lines of “free passes” for certain players, as opposed to a specific shift in strategy for a specific line that simply doesn’t play the way the other line plays, in terms of x’s and o’s. I also qualified that by saying it’s entirely possible this is already happening and I just don’t see it. we’re all learning on the job here and it’s especially difficult to know exactly what the directives are without being in the room.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 14, 2011 11:50 AM PDT up reply actions  

we’re all learning on the job here and it’s especially difficult to know exactly what the directives are without being in the room.

I think anybody trying to figure out Murray’s expectations of his players (and Lombardi’s expectations of coach and players) should take that to heart. We’re all pretty much just reading tea leaves and ice time stats.

by Lars H on Jun 14, 2011 11:55 AM PDT reply actions  

good read quisp..intresting

"A Chortled Evils Nip"
www.battleofcali.com

by SPADE-IN-VICTORHELL on Jun 14, 2011 12:43 PM PDT reply actions  

Great read

Joined to say thanks and well done, Quisp. And I must (reluctantly) thank Rudy for directing me here from BoC, I guess. :)

Barring significant injuries and whatnot and even before any potential FA moves, the Kings are scary (Sharks fan, sorry). I won’t be surprised at all to see them make it to at least the WCF next year…

…while the Ducks miss the playoffs.

by whine_country on Jun 14, 2011 7:04 PM PDT reply actions  

Moulson

First, terrific post, so fun to read, too difficult to praise in words (and I think you used them all up anyway). Got me thinking of two things:

1. Moulson: He had this bad defensive rap when he arrived on the Island. It hasn’t stuck with him. If anything, at least according to the microstats, Tavares holds him back rather than the other way around (in terms of two-way play. Not in terms of scoring.) Is this a mid-20s guy realizing it’s his last shot, so he better bust his ass both ways? Did he just need time? Did Murray’s rigid system not allow for the different types of D you mention? Which brings me to…

2. Scott Gordon: SO much of this post reminded me of the Scott Gordon tenure on Long Island. Obviously Murray had much more to work with and oh, two decades more experience in coaching. But on those rare nights when Gordon’s somewhat “cerebral” system was clicking, my goodness did the Islanders suddenly look like a different team. They’d ambush teams who didn’t know what hit them. To add insult to rare moments of joy, they’d then often collapse in the third period under the sheer novelty of actually having a lead. Fans would cried that his system was too demanding and not sustainable for 60 minutes. Gordon would always say they “got away from their system” — and he was probably right, but not in a way that would flatter him. Some of them were playing more traditional protect/prevent mode to hold the lead while others were playing “Gordon says go-go” style, which led to absolute clusterburrows.

When Gordon was canned, players predictably felt refreshed under his successor (they so often do). But among the small hints of actual change were player comments about how his successor allowed players to play more on instinct and less on thinking “where am I supposed to be.”

Likewise, I may not know what I’m talking about, but Murray’s tenure makes me think of an advanced situation like that.

Lighthouse Hockey: A flute with no holes is not a flute. A doughnut with no hole is Frans Nielsen.

by Dominik on Jun 15, 2011 10:33 AM PDT reply actions  

your gordon comparison is really interesting

i will have to think more on it, and read up.

i sometimes wonder if a coach’s “system” has an aspect of self-validation, like in a doomsday cult. everything is evidence that the system is “true,” even the failure of the system.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jun 15, 2011 11:51 AM PDT up reply actions  

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