Do the Kings need an enforcer?
by Quisp on Jun 6, 2011 12:50 PM PDT
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PrintI can argue it both ways. If Murray is right and Westgarth is on his way to becoming a productive forward, not just a liability plus fists, then it's not really an issue, because he's not really (just) an enforcer. But if he never warrants more than five minutes a game, are the Kings better served by icing a 4th unit that is actually useful? Or is the whole "debate" moot, since Murray frequently reconfigures the 4th unit with a pair of forwards not named Westgarth (say, Clifford and Lewis) and a top-nine forward double-shifting in Westgarth's place?
I'm pretty sure I subscribe to the idea that, if you have a couple of good middleweights and you've addressed team toughness in general, you don't need a guy who comes off the bench a couple of times a game to fight the other team's guy. I allow that I am not 100% convinced, but pretty close.
We've frequently seen Murray leave Westgarth in the press box because the other team doesn't dress an enforcer. And we've also seen that Westgarth (like Raitis Ivanans before him) frequently has trouble finding a dance partner. The flaw in the reasoning behind dressing an enforcer seems pretty obviously flawed: if enforcers only fight enforcers, the best way to neutralize the other team's enforcer is not to dress one.
Remember a couple of seasons ago when someone took a run at Doughty and the next shift Ivanans skated around aimlessly looking for a date? How is that a deterrent? It's not. The deterrent is the potential of a team response, a response from Clifford, Simmonds, Brown, Mitchell, Greene, Johnson, Doughty even. And it might not be a fight. It might be a check. Or, god-forbid, a power-play goal.
A excellent power play is the best deterrent of all. Take a run at our best player, we score and you lose.
NHL enforcer's role shrinking - Connecticut Post
Derek Boogaard was a member of a vanishing breed. Once commonplace, the hockey enforcer has become more and more of a spare part that some teams no longer consider crucial. [...] There are fewer true enforcers than just five or 10 years ago, with the specialization of fighting within the game and the institution of the instigator rule [...]. And with fewer opportunities to find jobs at the highest level of the game -- and even to find willing fight partners -- enforcers such as Boogaard, with limited hockey skills, have only a few minutes of ice time a night to make an impact the only way they know how. [...]
[In 1989-90], the Caps had three players with more than 200 penalty minutes: super pest Dale Hunter (233), Neil Sheehy (291) and Alan May (339). This past season, in the entire league, only Konopka and the Ottawa Senators' Chris Neil (210) had more than 200 penalty minutes.
[Nick] Kypreos, who had an eight-year NHL career that included the Stanley Cup with the 1993-94 Rangers, now covers the NHL as an analyst for Rogers SportsNet in Canada. So in just the last 20 years, he has seen the enforcer's role become more specialized -- and more removed from the usual flow of the game. "When I came up, you could look down almost any roster and find four or five guys who might fill that tough-guy role," he said. "The era before mine, in the 1970s and 1980s, you might have half the roster who would do that. Now maybe a team has two guys, but usually it's one. Or none."
The Kings had 49 fighting majors last season. Only three playoff teams (BOS, PIT, NYR) had more. Kyle Clifford (18), Kevin Westgarth (15) and Wayne Simmonds (6) led the way, followed by Brad Richardson (3), Matt Greene (2), Willie Mitchell, Marco Sturm, Ryan Smyth, Justin Williams and Davis Drewiske (all with 1). However:
- Greene is not a deterrent as a fighter. And when was it that he injured himself in a fight and missed a bunch of games? Last year or the year before. Anyway, since he's important to the defense, that's a reverse-deterrent, if you ask me.
- Willie Mitchell is not someone I want to get punched in the head.
- Justin Williams is not someone I want smashing his fists on people. They might be subject to the injury curse.
- Smyth, Sturm, Richardson, Drewiske: they've got guts. But they're not scaring anybody.
- Of Westgarth's 15 fights (against 13 different fighters), only one opponent scored more than ten goals (Paul Gaustad, 12), two scored between 5 and 10 (Jared Boll, 7; Chris Neil, 6). The average goal output for the 13 skaters is 3.06.
- Clifford's average is 3.11, i.e. not appreciably better.
- If you look at the sixteen fights by everyone else, the average goals/season for their opponents is 9.25.
- Even if you take out Simmonds' fight against Corey Perry and Richardson's against Teemu Selanne, the average for the rest of the fights is 4.78.
- And that number would have been higher, except that James Neal (normally a 20 goal scorer) scored but 1 goal over 20 games.
- There are actual hockey players on the list of opponents fought by not-Clifford-Simmonds-or-Westgarth: Perry (50), Selanne (31), Dan Boyle (9), Steve Ott (12), Neal (1), Steve Downie (10), John-Michael Liles (6)... These are at least players who can have a significant impact on a game. So, you know, fighting them actually means something.
G
Simmonds
Corey Perry
50
Richardson
Teemu Selanne
31
Westgarth
Paul Gaustad
12
Drewiske
Steve Ott
12
Clifford
Shawn Thornton
10
Mitchell
Steve Downie
10
Clifford
Tim Jackman
10
Richardson
Dan Boyle*
9
Greene
Cody McCormick
8
Sturm
Tim Brent
8
Westgarth
Jared Boll
7
Westgarth
Chris Neil
6
Williams
John-Michael Liles
6
Clifford
Brandon Segal
5
Westgarth
Matt Martin
5
Clifford
Brad Staubitz
4
Clifford
Daniel Carcillo
4
Clifford
Derek Dorsett
4
Simmonds
Eric Nystrom
4
Richardson
Scott Nichol
4
Westgarth
Deryk Engelland
3
Clifford
George Parros
3
Westgarth
George Parros
3
Westgarth
George Parros
3
Clifford
Jamal Mayers
3
Clifford
Roman Polack
3
Clifford
Theo Peckham
3
Clifford
Brian Sutherby
2
Westgarth
Jody Shelley
2
Simmonds
Mark Fistric
2
Clifford
Ryan Reaves
2
Clifford
Zenon Konopka
2
Westgarth
Zenon Konopka
2
Simmonds
Andrew Alberts
1
Westgarth
Cam Janssen
1
Smyth
Chris Campoli
1
Westgarth
David Koci
1
Clifford
Douglas Murray
1
Simmonds
Francis Boullion
1
Greene
James Neal
1
Westgarth
Paul Bissonnette
1
Clifford
Aaron Voros
0
Westgarth
D.J. King
0
Westgarth
John Scott
0
Westgarth
John Scott
0
Clifford
Kyle Chipchura
0
Simmonds
Ryan Craig
0
Clifford
Sheldon Brookbank
0
Clifford
Tyson Strachan
0
|
|
>5 |
0-5 |
TOT |
|
Clifford |
2 |
16 |
18 |
|
Westgarth |
3 |
12 |
15 |
|
Simmonds |
1 |
5 |
6 |
|
Richardson |
2 |
1 |
3 |
|
Greene |
1 |
1 |
2 |
|
Sturm |
1 |
0 |
1 |
|
Mitchell |
1 |
0 |
1 |
|
Drewiske |
1 |
0 |
1 |
|
Williams |
1 |
0 |
1 |
|
Smyth |
0 |
1 |
1 |
|
|
13 |
36 |
49 |
28 comments
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0 recs |
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Comments
I have never been one to subscribe to the theory that any team needs an enforcer, and actually would argue that Murray’s insistence on having one is a sign that he is a little more “old fashioned” than many other coaches in the NHL. More and more teams don’t have enforcers, and I really do not think that anyone is scared of Westgarth, like Murray seems to think they are. It reminds me of what Kevin Bieksa said about Chicago dressing John Scott in round one. Something along the lines of “When a 6’5, 250 pound guy asks you if you want to fight, you say no, skate around him and score”. It is much more important to ice a complete 4 line team, than having one guy who is a mainly a liability on the ice, but can fight. Yes, Westgarth got better as the season went along. No, he still isn’t good enough to take a regular shift in the NHL.
I really do not think that anyone is scared of Westgarth
He did break Colorado’s David Koci’s jaw in a fight in the preseason so that could make people scared of him.
Yes, Westgarth got better as the season went along. No, he still isn’t good enough to take a regular shift in the NHL.
If he plays like he did in the playoffs more consistently I would argue that he is good enough to take a regular shift in the NHL. Is that going to happen? Who knows but he did improve and wasn’t a liability every time he was on the ice by the end of the season/playoffs. If he continues to improve I have no problem with him staying in the lineup.
Clifford and Simmonds do the job dropping the gloves, we’ve got a bunch of guys that can put the “big hit” on someone, lets drop Westgarth and call up someone useful.
www.facebook.com/SportsXRadio
The good thing about Westgarth too is that it isn’t a big deal to scratch him for a while and just put him in games that Murray thinks may be very physical, tough, etc. Better than calling up someone like Kozun and sitting him in the press box every game.
Yeah. I think there are two ways to address the toughness issue. Either through overall team toughness (BOS and VAN, anyone?), or if your squad overall lacks the willingness to get dirty, then you need to have an enforcer who can regulate and keep the pests in line (Ott, Downie, Avery, big guys like Torres and Eager, etc).
If any of you watched Boston at all this year, you’d have noticed that if anyone tries to start crap, the WHOLE team comes together and puts an end to it. They just don’t put up with it. They have a gang mentality and take care of their business as a team, and it is quite obvious that other teams were reluctant to take liberties with anyone.
Let’s face it, the Kings overall, are not a very tough or physical team.
Great Post
The idea of having an enforcer is part of Murray’s “old school” mindset (part of the same mindset that results in an anemic offense) but seems to be an anachronism. I agree that overall team toughness is far more important than having a designated pugilist. I don’t think that someone like Westgarth has that much impact on any given game. No, not even his presence a deturrent. In this respect I think that Murray may be way off.
As I watch all of these playoff games, there is no fighting. Fact: With few exceptions, tough guys that like to fight have very little impact in the playoffs.
Kyle Clifford may have some scoring potential that remains to be seen. Finally, Derek Boogaard RIP.
Kyle Clifford may have some scoring potential that remains to be seen.
Three goals in 6 playoff games although a small sample size definitely equals some scoring potential. I think he will develop similarly to Simmonds who scored 9 goals in his first season compared to Clifford’s 7. He’s never going to be a top scorer, but he will be tough and can put the puck in the net to provide depth scoring.
I think enforcers are a lot more important in the East, especially the Atlantic and the Northeast. In the west there are so many teams that are just so good, you can’t afford to be giving icetime to someone who can’t play more then a minute or two.
"I bet Calgary wishes they had a backup goalie as their GM" - Pauly C
Contributor to Lighthouse Hockey not sure if I'm the Sniper or the Enforcer.
"The deterrent is the potential of a team response . . . [o]r, god-forbid, a power-play goal."
You wanna tell me that to mah face?!
by uvgt2bkdnme on Jun 6, 2011 3:41 PM PDT reply actions 1 recs
As biases go, that's an entirely reasonable one
I think you’ll find a lot of agreement with it. :-)
I agree with Quisp that having Clifford and Simmonds as middleweights (who also have real hockey value) plus overall team toughness ought to serve as a proper deterrent.
I don’t dislike Westgarth. Off the ice, he seems like an agreeable character. And I’m open to the possibility that he may yet become a useful player. But I don’t really like his chances. He’s edging out of the age range at which you can still be considered a prospect, and he’s starting from a fairly low base as it is. If he was a couple of years younger, I’d like his chances more.
"Prepare your bladder for imminent release!" — Invader Zim
i personally like kevin westgarth; i'm talking about the strategy, not this specific player
enforcers are usually pretty nice guys actually.
westgarth had a pretty good season, especially in the playoffs.
i just am hard-pressed to come up with an example of westgarth stepping up in the defense of a teammate. not his fault: the offenders don’t want to fight him. it was mitchell who took on downie, etc.
Wait till this year.
Mix in middle weights for those spontaneous explosions of emotion.
…the game evolved. We no longer see thugs dogging a star player to a point where they fear to step on the ice.
How are “harassers” deterred knowing the enforcer on the team is going to be the one getting beaten for another player’s actions? “Fights by appointment” rarely serve any purpose and deliver little satisfaction In today’s game.
Worse, enforcers are rarely in a position to maintain order. Certainly no modern coach or enforcer would dare attack the star player on an opposing team to extract revenge or gain advantage. I do not see the need for a heavyweight when 10-15 extra goals are on the line.
There will always be fights in hockey but its time to grow up a little.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
And in the playoffs, Eager chose to take on the younger, lighter Clifford, who already had a black eye, while Clowe refused to answer the bell like a little bitch.
But there’s a possibility he deterred them from stirring up more.
I don’t know. The players certainly like having a guy like him around. We know TM will never change his mind. I don’t think we need an enforcer, but I can’t see them changing their minds.
I guess we can just hope for Westgarth to grow as a player.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
by Niesy on Jun 7, 2011 12:06 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
But Clowe comes from a long line of Littlebitches. Right now, he’s late for the Littlebitche family reunion.
There’s a big rift between the branch of the family that has kept the silent ‘e’ and the ones who have let it drop. They stand around the picnic tables, hooting and making apelike gestures. From time to time it all boils over and they pretend to get into slap-fights.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
by Niesy on Jun 7, 2011 4:12 PM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you want to increase 5-on-5 scoring, one thing you don’t do is to dress a guy who almost literally cannot score.
by soccersucks on Jun 7, 2011 3:53 AM PDT reply actions 1 recs
I voted no. In the modern NHL I think the enforcer role is becoming a bit obsolite. Like Quisp wrote, if your enforcer can’t find a dance partner, what’s the point?
The best way to police dirty play is to have that Bruin’s “gang mentality” (seems to have worked for them this season.) That’s what the Kings need to bring. If someone like Parros takes a run at, say, Williams, then Brown or Stoll or Clifford is going to run over say, Bobby Ryan.
Besides, our smaller guys (Richardson, Simmonds, Williams) are all pretty tough I think and our bigger guys should be able to stand up for themselves. Isn’t that the idea for having these big bodies?
Not to mention, I’m all for one of Kozun, Toffoli or Vey cracking the line-up this season, thus eliminating a spot for Westie on the right side.
I’m always torn at this. Do the Kings need an enforcer? No, enforcers are stupid and pointless. Do I want them to have one? Yes, because I like watching fights and enforcers are cool in general. They’re like walking, talking Stallone movies. I know they’re retarded but I… I just love them so much.
by RudyKelly on Jun 7, 2011 10:57 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
Enforcers exist mainly for entertainment and tradition. No team needs an enforcer and teams that don’t “waste” a roster spot on one defintely are gaining an edge on other teams. I like watching a fight as much as the next guy but in truth I would rather watch Oscar Moller skate around with the Stanley Cup than a fight any day of the century.
Quite possibly the only LA Kings fan living in Brooklyn, New York.
I enjoy watching grown men beat one another about the face. I am a bad person.
by RudyKelly on Jun 7, 2011 1:42 PM PDT via mobile up reply actions
I don’t enjoy watching players like Cooke, Ruutu, Torres, Eager, Ott, Downie et. al. take runs at other (more talented) players and not get taken to task over it. On a Torres vs Seabrook or Ruutu vs Erat type hit, someone’s gotta respond to that fairly quick. Take an instigator if you have to. He needs to eat some fists for that. I dunno, I think players like that will continue to do that until someone says “Stop, I’m gonna take an eye for an eye here”.
Do you remember the big Dallas/Bruins brawl this year? That was in response to Ott playing like a wild monkey with AIDS running everyone on their team a year or two back. IMO, a little bit too late, but I’m sure Ott will not pull that crap again because he knows that he, and many of his teammates, will pay the price for it.
I’d also like the instigator eliminated or at least in instances where it was provoked by a dirty play or a something of that sort. Good clean hits are fine and don’t need instigated enforcement, imo, just regular old “orchestrated” dances, some talking to, or a big hit to settle the score. But you should be able to instigate a fight if someone just went head-hunting.
I don’t think there’s a good case for the complete elimination of goons on NHL teams.
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