The history of (future) Hall of Fame and Norris defensemen before age 22

by Quisp on Sep 16, 2011 9:45 PM PDT in Doughty Contract

SAN JOSE, CA - APRIL 23: Drew Doughty #8 of the Los Angeles Kings falls down when he is hit by teammate Justin Williams #14 and Torrey Mitchell #17 of the San Jose Sharks in game five of the Western Conference Quarterfinals during the 2011 NHL Stanley Cup Playoffs at HP Pavilion on April 23, 2011 in San Jose, California. (Photo by Ezra Shaw/Getty Images)

[This post originally appeared in early July; it's been getting a lot of hits this week for obvious reasons; I decided to kick it back to the top of the blog; comments are reopened, too.]

My original thought was to do a point/counter-point arguing whether or not Doughty deserved to be the highest-paid King -- but in going through the numbers I found it difficult to argue strongly in either direction. This was disappointing in a way, because I do enjoy taking both sides of an argument and setting them against each other. What I found, instead, was lots of grey area.

Here's a chart of 99 defensemen, culled from one (or more) of three lists: (1) the highest-scoring defensemen all-time (500 career points or more); (2) the currently highest-paid defensemen in terms of cap-hit; (3) the top-scoring defensemen over the last couple of seasons. I thought I would show that Doughty, before the age of 22, has done what few before him have done. That was simple enough: Doughty has scored 126 points in those three seasons, a feat which has been topped by only thirteen other players.

The "H" column has an asterisk in it if the player happens to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame.
The "N" column gives the number of Norris trophies won.
Players whose names are in red are both Hall-of-Famers and Norris winners.
Players whose names are in orange are merely in the Hall of Fame. :(
Players whose names are in green are Norris winners who aren't in the Hall, although some of them will certainly be in the Hall soon (Lidstrom, Chelios).
Names in purple are either active players or recently retired (purple being the default color for links to an SBN player page). [oops, the SBN tagger is having technical difficulties; purple links aren't happening]
The columns 18, 19, 20 and 21 reflect the number of points earned by that player at that age. 18-21 indicates the total for that period. R1 shows the rank at 18-21. RC shows the rank of the player's career totals with respect to the other players on this list.

	H	N	18	19	20	21	18-21	R1	RC
Phil Housley			66	77	69	62	274	1	5
Bobby Orr	*	8	41	31	64	120	256	2	12
Paul Coffey	*	3		32	89	96	217	3	2
Larry Murphy	*			76	66	62	204	4	6
Scott Stevens	*		25	45	65	53	188	5	13
Ray Bourque	*	5		65	56	66	187	6	1
Dave Babych				44	68	74	186	7	25
Paul Reinhart				47	67	61	175	8	46
Doug Bodger			31	37	49	45	162	9	51
Brian Leetch	*	2		14	71	56	141	10	9
Denis Potvin	*	3			54	76	130	11	8
Roman Hamrlik			21	21	23	65	130	11	34
Glen Wesley				37	54	36	127	13	48
Drew Doughty				27	59	40	126	14	90
Al MacInnis	*	1	0	4	45	66	115	15	4
Scott Niedermayer		1	1	40	46	19	106	16	24
Harry Howell	*	1			46	58	104	17	3
Alexei Zhitnik					48	52	100	18	60
Dion Phaneuf					49	50	99	19	70
George Ramage					28	62	90	20	44
Sandis Ozolinsh					23	64	87	21	44
Jeff Brown				5	29	52	86	22	39
Kevin Hatcher			1	19	24	41	85	23	29
Tyler Myers				48	37		85	23	94
Dave Ellett					38	46	84	25	42
Wade Redden				30	22	29	81	26	63
Ron Greshner					45	27	72	27	36
Erik Karlsson				26	45		71	28	96
Daryl Sydor				6	29	35	70	29	56
Chris Pronger		1		30	14	25	69	30	27
Gary Suter						68	68	31	15
Ed Jovanovski				21	23	23	67	32	59
Brad Park	*				26	37	63	33	14
Calle Johansson					42	21	63	33	49
Tomas Kaberle					22	40	62	35	50
Reed Larson					1	60	61	36	28
Nicklas Lidstrom		7				60	60	37	7
Doug Wilson		1			34	26	60	37	16
Teppo Numminen					15	43	58	39	33
Brent Seabrook					32	24	56	40	80
Eric Desjardins				14	16	25	55	41	41
Kris Letang				2	17	33	52	42	89
Mathieu Schneider			0		21	30	51	43	18
Fredrik Olausson					36	15	51	43	40
Brian McCabe					23	28	51	43	51
Shea Weber					10	40	50	46	79
Sergei Gonchar					7	41	48	47	26
Brent Burns			6		16	25	47	48	83
Bill Gadsby				18	16	13	47	48	42
Rob Blake		1			0	46	46	50	20
Alex Pietrangelo			1	2	43		46	53	97
James Patrick					8	36	44	52	32
P.K. Subban					2	38	40	53	99
Steve Duchesne						38	38	54	22
Garry Galley						38	38	54	37
Red Kelly	*	1			20	16	36	56	17
Jay Bouwmeester				16	20		36	56	73
Joni Pitkanen					27		27	58	73
Dan Hamhuis						26	26	59	82
Kevin Shattenkirk						26	26	59	98
Jack Johnson				0	11	11	22	61	93
Michal Rozsival						21	21	62	75
Randy Carlyle		1			5	13	18	63	31
Tim Horton				0		16	16	64	53
Mike Green					3	12	15	65	76
Keith Yandle					2	12	14	66	88
Christian Ehrhoff						12	12	67	78
Zdeno Chara		1			1	8	9	68	65
Rod Langway	*	2				7	7	69	67
James Wisniewski						7	7	69	86
Larry Robinson	*	1				6	6	71	10
Mike Komisarek					1	4	5	72	95
Brian Campbell					5	0	5	72	68
Robert Murray						3	3	74	55
Carol Vadnais						3	3	74	38
Chris Chelios		3				2	2	76	11
Jacques Laperriere	*	1				2	2	76	30
Bruce Driver						2	2	76	58
Borje Salming	*								19
Sergei Zubov									21
Mark Howe									23
Guy Lapointe									35
Doug Harvey	*	7							47
Brian Rafalski									54
Pierre Pilote	*	3							57
Jyrki Lumme									61
Dan Boyle									62
Lubomir Visnovsky									64
Andrei Markov									66
John-Michael Liles									69
Tom Johnson	*	1							71
Joe Corvo									72
Duncan Keith		1							77
Paul Martin									81
Tobias Enstrom									84
Ron Hainsey									85
Kevin Bieksa									87
Mark Giordano									91
Alex Goligoski									92

Only 13 defensemen in history have scored more points at 18-21 than Doughty. (There's a small chance I missed a name or two, since I don't have the ability -- without doing it manually -- to isolate individual ages over the entire history of the league. My assumption is that by isolating all the Hall of Famers, all the Norris winners and everyone with over 500 career points, I would catch 99% of the child prodigies.)
Of those 13, seven are in the Hall of Fame.
Five of the 13 are Norris winners, and those five have won it a total of 21 times. That's one-third of all the Norris trophies ever awarded.
Orr, Bourque, Stevens, Murphy, Leetch, Potvin, Housley and Coffey (8 of the 13) are elite players, generational talents. They're some of the best players ever.
However, the other five names are a bit of a problem. Because Babych, Reinhart, Bodger, Hamrlik and Wesley -- all very good players with fine careers -- would see their career numbers drop off from their 18-21 pace, as the RC column shows. None of them falls off the map, but I'm pretty sure if Doughty turns out to be Doug Bodger 2.0, that will be considered a disappointment.

Here are the 18-21 numbers as a percentage of the player's career numbers. I have isolated retired (or nearly retired) players, and only players who scored more than 80 points at 18-21 (in order to better approximate Doughty-ness). The default sort for the chart is the number of points the player scored from age 22 on (the 22+ column).

	TOT	18-21	R1	RC	% TOT	22+
Ray Bourque	1579	187	6	1	11.84%	1392
Paul Coffey	1531	217	3	2	14.17%	1314
Harry Howell	1298	104	17	3	8.01%	1194
Al MacInnis	1274	115	15	4	9.03%	1159
Larry Murphy	1216	204	4	6	16.78%	1012
Phil Housley	1232	274	1	5	22.24%	958
Denis Potvin	1052	130	11	8	12.36%	922
Brian Leetch	1028	141	10	9	13.72%	887
Scott Stevens	908	188	5	13	20.70%	720
Bobby Orr	915	256	2	12	27.98%	659
Scott Niedermayer	740	106	16	24	14.32%	634
Kevin Hatcher	677	85	23	29	12.56%	592
Dave Babych	723	186	7	25	25.73%	537
Jeff Brown	584	86	22	39	14.73%	498
Roman Hamrlik	624	130	11	34	20.83%	494
Dave Ellett	568	84	25	42	14.79%	484
Sandis Ozolinsh	564	87	21	44	15.43%	477
George Ramage	564	90	20	44	15.96%	474
Glen Wesley	537	127	13	48	23.65%	410
Paul Reinhart	559	175	8	46	31.31%	384
Alexei Zhitnik	471	100	18	60	21.23%	371
Wade Redden	450	81	26	63	18.00%	369
Doug Bodger	528	162	9	51	30.68%	366

There is an obvious divide in the list: Niedermayer and up representing the franchise-type players; Hatcher and down representing the very good but not elite. This, of course, begs the original question, or I guess rephrases it:
Is Drew Doughty closer to Bourque, Murphy, Potvin and Leetch...or Hamrlik, Reinhart, Wesley and Bodger?
I decided to look at the next block of four years, ages 22-25, to see if it was a better predictor of career numbers. Obviously, Doughty (and many others out of the 99 we started with) don't have data here because they're not 22 yet (or are, just barely). I have once again focused only on retired (or nearly retired) players.

	TOT	22-25	26+	R22-25	RC
Bobby Orr	915	479	249	1	12
Paul Coffey	1531	452	975	2	2
Denis Potvin	1052	373	462	3	8
Ray Bourque	1579	332	1132	4	1
Jacques Laperriere	674	327	287	5	30
Brian Leetch	1028	305	519	6	9
Al MacInnis	1274	301	971	7	4
Harry Howell	1298	296	996	8	3
Phil Housley	1232	284	674	9	5
Gary Suter	845	278	531	10	15
Doug Wilson	827	266	561	11	16
Steve Duchesne	752	254	447	12	22
Brad Park	896	252	598	13	14
Reed Larson	685	251	434	14	28
Larry Murphy	1216	250	966	15	6
Scott Stevens	908	241	607	16	13
Randy Carlyle	647	241	338	16	31
Jeff Brown	584	240	344	18	39
Ron Greshner	610	230	342	19	36
Dave Babych	723	229	456	20	25
Sergei Zubov	771	222	491	22	21
Kevin Hatcher	677	222	455	22	29
Fredrik Olausson	581	220	314	24	40
Larry Robinson	958	212	746	25	10
Borje Salming	787	211	558	26	19
James Patrick	639	207	388	27	32
Dave Ellett	568	204	313	28	42
Chris Chelios	948	203	684	29	11
Guy Lapointe	622	200	367	30	35
Sandis Ozolinsh	564	198	281	31	44
Paul Reinhart	559	198	358	31	46
Calle Johansson	535	192	341	33	49
George Ramage	564	191	371	34	44
Nicklas Lidstrom	1108	190	909	35	7
Red Kelly	823	187	585	36	17
Glen Wesley	537	180	285	37	48
Doug Bodger	528	174	168	39	51
Scott Niedermayer	740	171	507	40	24
Rob Blake	777	158	549	46	20
Mathieu Schneider	794	157	547	48	18
Robert Murray	514	153	298	49	55
Rod Langway	329	152	177	50	67
Eric Desjardins	575	147	428	53	41
Mark Howe	742	145	597	54	23
Bruce Driver	486	139	266	55	58
Daryl Sydor	507	137	208	56	56
Sergei Gonchar	711	136	575	57	26
Teppo Numminen	637	132	330	60	33
Alexei Zhitnik	471	130	320	61	60
Carol Vadnais	587	114	466	65	38
Jyrki Lumme	468	110	358	67	61
Garry Galley	599	108	491	68	37
Bill Gadsby	568	89	479	72	42
Tim Horton	518	70	421	80	53
Doug Harvey	540	48	466	84	47
Tom Johnson	264	46	211	86	71
Pierre Pilote	498	25	374	90	57

The thing that leaps out at me is that looking at the numbers for defensemen at this age is a much better predictor of career numbers than looking at numbers at age 18-21.
R22-25 is the player's rank (out of the 99 players I selected) in terms of their total points between ages 22 and 25. RC is their career rank, among the same 99 players. If you compare the top 15 in both lists: (22-25) the nine players whose rank fell in terms of career totals averaged a drop of 7 spots; (18-21) the nine players whose rank fell in terms of career totals dropped an average of 20 spots.
Over-all, the 22-25 top 15 dropped an average of 3.6 spots, while the 18-21 top 15 dropped an average of 11.4 spots.
Interestingly, 7:20 reduces to 1:2.86 and 3.6:11.4 reduces to 1:3.16...both very close to 1:3.
In other words, a randomly selected player in the top 15 in the 18-21 column is likely to fall nearly three times are far down the career list than a randomly selected player in the top 15 at 22-25.
And if Doughty were in the top 15 of the 22-25 group in four years, instead of worrying he's going to turn into Hamrlik, Reinhart, Wesley or Bodger, we would be worrying he was going to turn into Steve Duchesne or Reed Larson.
So, from the 22-25 list, not only are there fewer bad outcomes, but the bad outcomes themselves are upgrades over the bad outcomes of the previous list.
Which tells me that, while what Doughty has accomplished so far is certainly something special, something only 13 players in the history of the league have managed to do, it's not a reliable predictor of future eliteness, greatness, Hall-of-Fameness or whatever other attribute one might expect in return or $7MM a year.
That would be an easier argument to make if Anze Kopitar weren't getting $6.8MM, arguably having accomplished less.

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Comments

Numbers

So Quisp, I’m glad you share my love for data. Too much in our society is left to anecdotal evidence or “feelings”.
With that said … my take away is the Kings need to pay DD what he is expecting to be paid, in a realization that it could pay off in the long run if he turns out to be the next Bobby Orr/Phil Housley/Ray Borque. Or sign him short term for near the money he is asking but assuming the risk he could cost more in the future.
Tough call, personally I have issue paying for what someone/something is going to cost as opposed to what they (should) cost now. Which is why I buy stocks and don’t get involved with hedge funds.
Some businesses like the airline industry need to hedge because fuel is 70% of their costs. Done right they make money, done wrong they get a government bailout or pass the costs through hoping it is supported by their customers …
To hedge or not to hedge that’s the question DL and management are facing?

by kevin_ebel on Jul 11, 2011 3:28 PM PDT reply actions

yes, and then there's the effect that each deal has on every subsequent deal

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 11, 2011 3:53 PM PDT up reply actions

Breaks down to two ...

Which I would say could be broke down into two separate schema;
1) Budget – Not ready to make the big salary push (which you would hope ties to a push for the cup)
2) Cap/Cup Push (opposite as above)

If you don’t hold yourself to either of these schema then you are just deviating from the norm … until deviation becomes the norm then players/agents have their way with you.

I guess I would put us (LA Kings) in group 2.

Ok Dean, we solved it all on the internet.

Thanks for all the work you put into this and every post Quisp!

by kevin_ebel on Jul 11, 2011 5:06 PM PDT up reply actions

Is it fair to compare salaries across different positions? Of the top ten highest salaries for 2010-2011, six of them were centers (Lecavalier, Crosby, Malkin, Drury, Gomez, and Spezza) and only one was a defenseman (Keith).

by sstephen17 on Jul 11, 2011 4:34 PM PDT reply actions

yes that would be the counter argument

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 11, 2011 4:43 PM PDT up reply actions

Amazing numbers, but should be considered even more amazing if you look at how good players are nowadays, compared to how lackadaisical opposing players were with training back then..

Matching him up to the best historicly is awsome, and I’m glad to see how he stacks up there.

It does beg the question, How would some of those players ahead of him on your list stack up against the level of compitition that todays athletes play against? Especially the defensive improvements in over all systems that teams play, and the fine tuning of goalie styles compared to even just 25 years ago.

One would think if the level of competition were balanced, DD’s numbers would be impressive. The fact the average athlete now a days, is more fine tuned than in the past, makes the fact that he even made that list at 13th quite a telltale sign of something special.

by defrim65 on Jul 11, 2011 5:00 PM PDT reply actions

Simple

Pay him what Bobby Orr got….

by Choralon3 on Jul 11, 2011 5:16 PM PDT reply actions

Why don’t we wait till he recks his knee?

by defrim65 on Jul 11, 2011 5:21 PM PDT up reply actions

DL’s actions feels more like a push to get out of the 2nd round.

White Knight or a White Elephant this is still a distraction and one that might leave little room to adjust for a 3rd round. I would like to see a little more Doughty before offering big, long term numbers. But I know that’s not to be.

Wow Quisp Numbers, Numbers, Numbers…thanks.

Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?

by USHA#17 on Jul 11, 2011 5:36 PM PDT reply actions

Well put together. Also-

Phil Housley’s not in the Hall of Fame?

by CrownedRoyal on Jul 11, 2011 11:52 PM PDT reply actions

Nope

defensive numbers not great

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 12, 2011 10:20 AM PDT up reply actions

This is extraordinary. I can’t even imagine the time you put into this post. Awesome stuff.

by puddle on Jul 11, 2011 11:53 PM PDT reply actions

Even now, it’s hard for me to contemplate Larry Murphy without an abiding sense of sadness, and looking at the actual numbers only deepens the funk. His first two seasons with the Kings were pretty extraordinary, yet after three seasons they traded him for someone who was probably a better broadcaster than defenseman (Engblom) and a non-entity (Houston).

If history repeats itself with Doughty, I’m think I’m going to throw myself off of the Arroyo Seco bridge. :-(

"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly

by DougX on Jul 12, 2011 1:24 AM PDT reply actions

Impressive

historical analysis, not that I’d expect anything less from this blog. Don’t think you missed anyone at the top of the list. Initially I expected Barry Beck to be up there after the impressive start to his relatively short career, but sure enough, he was 20 or so during his first season.

Now a chart showing the jump in value of those players’ second contracts would show how much things have changed since the one-sided days of an owner-ruled league.

Btw, interesting that the list names Rob Ramage by his legal first name, “George”. That’s some no nonsense data that you’re using.

by SCSF on Jul 12, 2011 8:23 AM PDT reply actions

Barry Beck! Yes, thank you! Good catch. He had 102 points in his first two seasons, which means he should be right behind Harry Howell in the first chart, a few spots behind Doughty

he finished with 355 points. he had 171 points in the 22-25 years, which is much farther down the list…consistent with my conclusion that 22-25 is a better predictor.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 12, 2011 10:31 AM PDT up reply actions

Apples and Oranges?

I appreciate the attempt but I think unfortunately this chart is comparing apples to oranges. Players from different eras and different team situations. Did they produce those numbers under comparable circumstances to Doughty? Who knows.

I think your second to last point is the best one that 18-21 is not an age or stat category that reliably predicts future performance. So here’s what I would propose to Doughty:

1. Yeah you had a decent 3 years w/ a dip last year. I get it injury and all but also you got more attention from other teams. So how much of that dip was injury and how much greater attention? And with that attention you are more likely to get hurt as teams will now look to put the hurt on you.
2. So let’s do a deal for 3-4 years around 5-6 million. If your numbers go up and you do look like the next Coffey or Orr then you’ll get a fat reward at the end of that contract. Heck I’ll have to give you a 10 year $100 million contract just to keep my job and keep the fans from rioting. And if I don’t offer you that deal you’ll easily get a fat reward from another team.
3 If in 4 years your numbers aren’t in the Orr area and more close to your 2nd year stats heck you could still get a fat reward as those are still good numbers and there are many great players that had better numbers after 26.

So essentially it’s Drew we know you got skills and even more potential. Your reward is your the #2 highest paid guy on our team.

by JB_LA on Jul 12, 2011 11:05 AM PDT reply actions

everything is apples and oranges

that’s why we keep track of stats. you are welcome to make whatever mental adjustments you need to make, but it would be counterproductive for me to make them for you. there is no end to the apples and oranges argument, you can say defensemen didn’t score in that era, or that was dead puck, or that was expansion, or that was the oilers/canadiens/islanders dynasty, or that was post-lock-out, or that was pre-zamboni, or pre-european invasion, etc. etc.. the point is, we use stats to compare players to one another.

the comparable situation to doughty is age. that’s it. age, and the fact that they’re all NHL defensemen. of course you can qualify the different stats based on circumstance. that’s the whole point. nobody thinks bobby orr is a loser because he dropped to 12th overall. etc.

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Jul 12, 2011 12:55 PM PDT up reply actions

I was mulling offensive v defensive eras

Then the last chart washed that wildcard. Nice.

Duchesne is/was a good comparison. Doughty has that spin move while Duchesne was extremely mobile…and lean. Wonder what Drew will come up with once players adjust to his “move”.

Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?

by USHA#17 on Sep 17, 2011 11:55 AM PDT up reply actions

Your numbers...

… more or less represent what the Kings’ initial bid would sound like.

Hence, you’re going to see the deal done for about $6.3-$6.6 million, but with a longer term.

by shm5555 on Jul 12, 2011 2:59 PM PDT up reply actions

ah, yes, i long for the days when a deal like that seemed possible

Wait till this year.

by Quisp on Sep 17, 2011 3:37 PM PDT up reply actions

Could be worse…
Imagine what he would be asking for if he had points in the 50 to 60 range again…

Eleventy Gajillion per season!!!!!

"Thank you very much fans and let’s go for the next game together!"

— Lubomir Visnovsky

I rec’d that shit.

by Steven Hida on Sep 18, 2011 6:24 PM PDT up reply actions

Kopi...

… has a cap hit relatively proportional to his productivity, and that’s with an honest contact and not a Richards-esque front-loaded deal. Load in three years at $2M at the tail end (I know, I know, he’s too young for that) and it looks even better.

But even with the fiddling, is he appreciably worse than Brad Richards? If he had Ovie on his wing, would he have a 100-point season like Backstrom? $6.8 seems about the going cap hit for the lynchpin of a forward corps in the NHL these days.

by shm5555 on Jul 12, 2011 2:35 PM PDT reply actions

I noticed the URL is “Part One Why Drew Doughty Should Be Given Everything He Wants”, but after reading it, I get the feeling he hasn’t earned Kopitar money (or more) until he proves he can keep his pace through his 22-25 years. A two- or three-year deal to carry him through those years would be ideal, but seems unlikely right now. The contract Drew’s asking for now is excessive and in a worst-case scenario could leave the Kings high and dry, especially if he gets his NMC.

Tough spot for DL, I think he’s handled it well thus far and I assume he will continue to do so. Still worried about how the dominos could end up falling though.

Awesome post, Quisp, great work as always.

Giv'r

by DontDoughtDrew on Jul 13, 2011 12:12 PM PDT reply actions

- Which tells me that, while what Doughty has accomplished so far is certainly something special, something only 13 players in the history of the league have managed to do, it’s not a reliable predictor of future eliteness, greatness, Hall-of-Fameness or whatever other attribute one might expect in return or $7MM a year.

- That would be an easier argument to make if Anze Kopitar weren’t getting $6.8MM, arguably having accomplished less.

These last two points really jumped out as I re-read this post. I think you’ve actually pinpointed the two biggest obstacles keeping DD out of camp right now. DL is negotiating from the pov of your 1st point (18-21 =X= HOF), and Meehan (and quite possibly Drew) can’t get past the 2nd point (Anze’s $6.8M).

It’s interesting in a masochistic way to wonder whether Doughty would be a holdout today if Anze’s caphit was somewhere between $6.25M-$6.5M… Would DL and DD have compromised at $6.5M? Months ago?

@Quisp, in response to your “here’s what you do drew… seriously” post: how I wish we lived in a magical world where Anze could pick up the phone and tell Drew how nice the water is on Brisson Beach! Thank you for indulging my mini tangent. Drew is so frickin’ phenomenal and this whole situation is just so sh***y. I appreciate those of you who’ve tried to make sense of it, because it just irritates me, and why I’ve stayed largely mute on the topic to date.

Speaking of seriousy… seriously, why don’t we live in that world where Anze puts the Captain in Alternate and calls his teammate? Considering Anze’s unique knowledge of so many parts of DD’s decision, isn’t that totally logical, in both the aforementioned magic world and the real world? I know it’s because “not getting the most money possible” gives the player’s less leverage for the next CBA, but that’s such empty, agent, rhetoric. Quisp, you’ve touched on this subject so effectively, at least in the past few years I’ve followed JftC. The rich getting richer in a sport with a hard cap does NOT help the majority of players. My God, this holdout is just so unnecessary. For so many reasons.

by Doughty99 on Sep 17, 2011 3:48 AM PDT reply actions