Mulletgate: is a formal grievance next?
by Quisp on Jul 19, 2011 9:46 PM PDT
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PrintHelene Elliott on Twitter this afternoon (link is broken, sorry):
helenenothelen NHL mediator unable to resolve dispute btween Kings, Oilers over Colin Fraser's fitness. Next step: Kings must decide if they want to file a formal grievance with the league. If so, it would be heard and ruled on by Commissioner Bettman.
Lombardi said they were trying to work out a solution with NHL lawyer David Zimmerman; presumably he is the mediator in question. Lombardi made it seem as though he would accept whatever decision Zimmerman made, but Elliott's tweet makes it sound like Zimmerman made no decision at all; or maybe (since it's now being referred to as "mediation"), Zimmerman's opinion was not persuasive to both parties. I assume this will be cleared up by an LA Times and/or LAKi article in the next few hours.
A couple of days ago, I wondered if we weren't in the middle of an Article 17 grievance. However, my understanding is that such a grievance would have to be initiated by either the league or the NHLPA. The union, as I mentioned a few days ago, ought to have some interest in whether Colin Fraser is getting a fair shake here; but I don't think it's come to that. I think the league and the union are both spectators at this point.
The process for resolving disputes between two clubs is described in the NHL Constitution, Article 6.3(b)(1) (Commissioner/Powers and Duties/Dispute Resolution):
"The Commissioner shall have full and exclusive jurisdiction and authority to arbitrate and resolve [...] any dispute that involves two or more member clubs of the league [...]. [T]he decision of the Commissioner shall be final and binding on all parties and shall not be subject to review."
Here's the reaction from Lowetide:
Lowetide: You Wanna Piece of ME?
This is getting interesting now. I don't remember the last time a trade went this route, but I wonder if the option of reversing the trade is a possible outcome.
THAT would be difficult for both teams to endure.
Yes, reversing the trade is a possible outcome.
The Commissioner can suspend or fire employees, levy fines, award, strip or transfer draft picks, or transfer players (!), at his discretion. See NHL Constitution, Article 6.3(j), Discretionary Powers.
Fun times.
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Goodness sakes, this is getting dragged out unnecessarily
Bettman should’ve been the guy mediating from the start…
Make a ruling so we can move on…
The more you drink, the less gruesome I look.
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@shadowking011
Well, I suspect that Zimmerman was deputed to handle this so that Bettman wouldn’t have to get involved. But my guess is that the Oilers are being intransigent, with Tambellini jabbing his index finger at Dean to emphasize the words, “as is.”
So the league has to make some sort of ruling, and the ruling needs to come from the boss, as a political matter. Yeah, this shouldn’t have gone all the way up to the Commissioner. But now mediation has failed, it’s probably best to have Bettman’s imprimatur on the ruling, to settle it once and for all. When the kids won’t stop arguing, Dad has to step in and lay down the law.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
Oh yeah
Starting to feel a bit of confidence coming on for my doughty bet
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Jul 19, 2011 11:20 PM PDT reply actions
I wonder if the Edmonton media will start covering this in a serious manner.
Tyler Dellow has often said that they march in lockstep with Oilers brass, and I feel like that’s the case here. The party line is “It’s no big deal, and how dare he drag Fraser and Brule through the mud”…not seeming to consider that Lombardi might have a reason to file a grievance.
Makes you appreciate that Elliott never approves of anything or anybody.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Lemme see. Smyth returned to LA. DL loses cap space to sign Doughty. Doughty jumps to Edmonton…
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
by USHA#17 on Jul 20, 2011 6:10 AM PDT via mobile reply actions
I think a lot of Oilers fans would love that idea, but in the interest of playing along:
Current cap space with 21 players: $9,943,690
10% summer overage cushion: $6,430,000
Minus Smyth’s Cap hit: $6,250,000
I wind up with $10,123,690 in cap space remaining. And teams have seven days to decide if they want to match, so conceivably other players could be shipped out. Is this correct, Quisp?
Plus this is all assuming Doughty would want to move to Edmonton.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Golly...
… didn’t mean to burn down the garage but good points.
Thinking it couldn’t get funnier had it been planned but if there is any fault its on DL for be suckered twice. Sometimes it makes more sense just to walk away…and leave both cap hits in Edmonton.
Perhaps the only act remaining is seeing if Bettman has an ounce of creativity and if so he decides this is place to show it.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
The Brule deal fell through because they did check to see if he could be be bought out. The Fraser deal went bad, but it wasn’t for a lack of reading the fine print or anything. The doctors came to different conclusions.
I think Quisp’s point about the buyout window was a good one. Even if you completely distrusted the Oilers’ medical files and flew him out first, which would be pretty unusual, would there have been time? The other alternative is keeping Smyth. Which I wish we had done, but apparently that would have made him unhappy.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Well that comes down to the sport evolving away from the days where GM’s were men of their words.
Maybe the answer is for Edmonton pick up 35% of his cap this year and medial costs. But why whould Edmonton do anything unless forced?
As for Smyth…I know you patiently endured 32 games of my bitching about the guy. Sorry…tried to stop, honestly…complaining about Smyth became like a crack addition…
Considering Smyth spent 32 games on his ass and still tallied 23 goals is quite notable except he took his line out of 32 games while finishing just 3 points inside of 8th. I don’t know if I would bet on his “back problem” which to me looked more like an empty tank.
Smyth’s departure allowed for overall team improvement, signing Doughty and still leave wiggle room for more. Considering the new personal that’s bigger then 23 goals.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
But why whould Edmonton do anything unless forced?
Because they might want to trade with Lombardi? And not look like swindlers? There are at least some reasons.
Smyth had his minuses, but he helped win us more than a few games, at least in the early part of the season. And he showed up in the playoffs.
Gagne might — and I stress might — be an upgrade, but there are serious question marks about his durability there. I am not fully comfortable with him as 2nd line LW.
I’d rather have had some leisure time to find a Smyth replacement and eventually deal him away to Edmonton, if they were willing. Barring that, keeping Smyth would have been fine. But that’s my own take.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I liked scoring smyth, did not like slow smyth, never liked nice-guy crying smyth, and i have zero patience with "i would prefer to be traded to edmonton"
i don’t think he had any “family reasons” that couldn’t have been cured by giving him more ice-time and less of a burden of defensive responsibility.
i personally feel that gagne, head-to-head, is an upgrade over smyth.
sounds like a future post.
Wait till this year.
I see what you’re saying, but, straight up head to head, and Smyth demands aside,
I would feel a lot better about that if I knew ahead of time that Gagne was going to stay healthy and score more goals (which he did not do last season). Smyth, warts and all, produced more. I will write something.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Hoping for a future post on this...
I have to admit, I never comtemplated DL’s time window issue to buy Smyth out, as you referred to elsewhere in these comments, nor this comment’s points. Interesting to hear you mention Smyth’s possible issues with his defensive responsibilities on this team and the amount of ice time he was given. You also mentioned to the Oil Country guy, something about his locker room relational status with his teammates. I assumed he was a positive there, especially with the youguns’…
Be very interested to hear your thoughts in more detail on all this…
by kiosku2 on Jul 22, 2011 10:45 AM PDT via mobile up reply actions
You also mentioned to the Oil Country guy, something about his locker room relational status with his teammates.
He just means that a guy who requests a trade is probably not a guy that was espousing the virtues of the organization he plays for and you probably don’t want him around your younger guys.
I’ve never heard someone say anything negative about Smyth’s attitude. And believe me, I’ve looked.
To Neisy and Quisp, below
No argument from me. Gagne might flame out…who knows. Smyth did step up.
Smyth’s 23 goals and 47 points while not able to play effectively for more the 37 (in my estimation) games is an amazing achievement. Heck that a path for a 90+ point season…at 35.
Yet, I haven’t seen anyone at this site place Smyth’s last season in this light. You may be right, there may be another good offensive year in him. But I am not upset by the changes.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
Smyth’s definitely more of a power-play producer than a scorer 5v5. And he was never going to be a fast skater. In those respects, Gagne could out-strip him.
By even-strength terms he was a slightly sub-par producer last year. But our power play needed every goal it could get, so I consider that a wash.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I didn’t dislike Smyth, and still don’t dislike him. But I like swapping in Gagne for him. Gagne has his injury issues, but Smyth missed time each of the last two seasons, too. And Smyth is at that point in his career where there is no upside, only scheduled decline. I think Gagne is the better bet for the next season, much less over the next two or three.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
yeah
i would think, though, that part of Lombardi’s grievance will be that , because Fraser’s injury was revealed on the 30th (or the 29th, the wednesday), Lombardi did not have time to have the trade voided in time to be able to buy-out Smyth by the 5pm deadline on the 30th. As a result, Lombardi’s plan-b was off the table. Part of Lombardi’s argument to Bettman would undoubtedly be that he would have been able to buy-out Smyth had he not been able to work out a deal with (for example) Calgary; but now, with Tambellini sending him damaged goods, Lombardi can’t do the former and his ability to do the latter (trade to someone else) is hampered by the fact that teams have since gone through the Free Agent Swap Meet and have much less flexibility than they had a month ago.
The point being, Bettman could reverse the trade as an f/u to Lombardi (and AEG — why would he do that?); but he could also allow Lombardi to buy-out Smyth at this late date if he so chooses. He can do whatever he wants. I don’t think Lombardi would pursue such a course if he didn’t know Bettman was sympathetic (remember that room full of NHL lawyers working with Dean late into the night, with the lawyers saying you can’t take this deal because he’s injured even though Tambellini says he isn’t).
Wait till this year.
Lombardi did not have time to have the trade voided in time to be able to buy-out Smyth
That’s a really good point that I hadn’t occurred to me.
Seconded.
I also agree that it’s really hard to imagine Bettman wanting to irk AEG. And while I think he gets a kick out of being booed in Canada as it is, it really would piss off everyone. Well, everyone but the guys in the Oilers front office that didn’t seem to want him.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I say, let it go. Yes, DL got royally screwed here – first by Smyth demanding a trade, and that demand being made public, and then by Tambellini being an asshole and sticking it to them even more than he had to. But seriously, this has dragged on and on, and I think it’s time to let it go. Is all of it really worth what the Kings may get out of it? What if Bettman simply says “Fine, reverse the trade”. Let it go, and simply don’t answer the phone the next time Tambellini calls.
What if Bettman simply says "Fine, reverse the trade"
Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think there’s a real risk of that. Evil Gary Bettman isn’t really evil.
I get why Lombardi would keep fighting. I don’t really understand why Tambellini is — but then they are very close to 50 contracts. Is there no one else with a full set of working limbs to sub in?
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
True, the odds of Bettman reversing the trade are pretty slim. Yet, I just don’t know if it’s worth it to keep fighting it. I went to the Cooper and Blue, which has a handy list of the 50 contracts the Oilers have, and I don’t know what player among them would be worth this fight over, that the Kings could realistically get. So I still say, DL should let it go. Yes, he got screwed, but I just don’t see this fight being worth it.
Well, I think it’s interesting that the Oilers fans will say something similar — it’s not that big of a deal, why doesn’t he just drop it? But when it comes to Tambellini taking him back, it suddenly is a big deal.
Lombardi specifically requested a player whom he had the option to buy out — this was a concession, when the Oilers wouldn’t just make it a simple low draft pick (imagine how smooth that would have been). Now he doesn’t want to be stuck with a player taking up one of his 50 contracts whom he can’t play and also can’t get rid of by other means.
I think as a GM you should try to get what you can. So the question is, will they file a grievance? I don’t see them voiding the deal, but I guess we’ll see.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
All true enough. I don’t have a problem with DL continuing to fight if he wants to – and I would love to see Tambellini get his ass kicked because of this. I just don’t think that’s going to happen. I just question if the best possible outcome of this situation (which is what – they take Fraser back? The Kings get another player, and if so who? Or another low draft pick?) is worth the fight. The Kings got out of Smyth’s contract a year early, with no buyout penalty, and that allowed them to add Gagne, who in my mind is better than Smyth anyway, at a much lower cap hit – even when you factor in Fraser’s contract. So to me, the Kings have already come out ahead, even if they got screwed with Fraser. Also, I’m just sick of reading the comments of Oilers fans and would rather never have to read anything else about Ryan Smyth ever again.
If nothing happens, it’s true the Kings could just deal with it. But the best possible outcome is that you don’t have to waste cap space and a contract slot on a player you can’t use. Seems good enough to me.
We aren’t near the cap now, but if (in some hypothetical future) they make another trade for a high-priced roster player sometime this season, then they could be at the cap. Once you’re in that danger zone — like, say, the Flyers are now — “itty bitty” amounts start to matter a great deal.
I’m not saying that will happen, but I think good GMs seek the maximum amount of flexibility.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
You make a good point in that the rational response may be to just bite your tongue and walk away. I guess Dean reacted somewhat emotionally, but it’s a pattern I recognize — and yet again, I go back to eBay as an analogy. If you feel like someone has taken you for a ride, even if it’s a small matter that’s more trouble than it’s worth, your first reaction is to get pissed off and look for some kind of redress. It isn’t always the right play, but it is instinctive and understandable.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
Is there no one else with a full set of working limbs to sub in?
Given what we’ve learned about the Oilers medical staff, I think that’s a valid question.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
what's funny to me about the edmonton fan response is
if it’s not a big deal, don’t worry about it.
lombardi is allowed to grieve tiny grievances, if he wants to. let him.
if bettman says the oilers have to take fraser back, so what? if he says they have to cough up another pick, so what? if he says the trade stands, oh well; at least lombardi will have had his day in court.
the only reason the edmonton fans are upset about it is they’re afraid they will lose Smyth. saying “it’s no big deal” is really just saying “shut up and take the damaged goods because I already spent the money” (that’s the eBay analogy again).
Wait till this year.
No Deadline?
If that is so, then I would advise DL to wait ‘til next spring.
Call off the trade with one day left on Smyth’s contract, send back Fraser, and demand the Oiler’s 2nd pick as compensation.
Sorry for Smyth for this sad situation, but he in fact caused it.
I don't feel DL overreacted...
Sure ST helped the Kings by taking on the obviously difficult cap hit contract of Smyth’s but c’mon (sorry Rudy), the guy can still play (20-25 goal scorer), his contract has only one year left on it, he’s good with younger players AND he has almost mthyical status in Oil Country; despite the high cap hit of Smyth’s this season, it’s not as if DL asked Tambo to take on Cloutier or Roenick, etc.
Also, the Oil are still rebuilding, allowing them the freedom to take on a big cap hit contract (for one year no less) just as we did a few years back when we graciously paid guys such as Nagy and Preissing more in what management knew was hardly “the Cup run year”. I know GMs are hardly expected to be altruistic, but might future deals be affected down the road because of situations like this?
Kings fans,
Mulletgate, the new sequel to last year’s smash hit, Kovalchuk: Will He or Won’t He?, is now available at your local website. Makes for great summer reading and is a great gift, too!
Hilarious
It is so funny how all you idiot kings fans think Smyth will actually come back. Do you realize how bad that will look on both franchises and the NHL as a whole. Most that happens is that Edmonton is given a fine so give it a break. Tell your boy Lombardi to calm down a bit on this one and I could care less if L.A. never trades with Edmonton again, we alreayd fleeced you on the Penner trade and then on this one too. I like the Kings, you guys have a really good team, like cup contending team so start focusing on what you have and stop whinning about this.
I don’t see much whining here. Rather it’s a debate about whether or not Lombardi should file a grievance and the possible outcomes if he does. As for fleecing the Kings on the Penner trade, we’ll see how Penner performs this year. Teubert was probably NEVER going to make the Kings lineup, and the best possible outcome for him is probably as a bottom pairing defensemen – even on the Oilers. Klefbom may turn out to be very good for the Oilers, but the Kings are so deep in defense prospects, that I don’t see that as mattering very much, so the trade was definitely worth the risk.. Then again, if you truly believe that the Oilers have fleeced LA in both of these trades, why would not care if the two teams ever trade again? It benefits your team, right?
did you watch penner at all last year when he came to the Kings? That alone made you lose that trade, hes not going to get any better as he is a very lazy player.
Have you read anything about what Penner is doing this year? That he’s lost weight and has been working out every day and is more committed than ever to being a better player. That he admitted he wasn’t prepared for the intensity of the Kings regime and the demands placed on him? He didn’t play well last year when he came over to the Kings. That doesn’t mean he’ll won’t play better this year. And I’m pretty sure you should wait until the guys the Oilers got out of the trade play an NHL game before you declare the Oilers the victor.
Teubert: 0 NHL games
a third round pick next year and a prospect who’s just joined the Oilers’ organizational ranks.
no, it’s not too early at all to say who won this trade.
You wanna tell me that to mah face?!
The phrase is; “I couldn’t care less”. I hate when people say it wrong!
by Kingsfan99 on Jul 21, 2011 9:22 AM PDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nobody wants Smyth to come back.
But I’m glad you admit the Oilers are in the wrong here, no matter how small the penalty turns out to be.
we alreayd fleeced you on the Penner trade
No matter how good Colten Teubert turns out — and so far he is widely regarded to be a bust, as you have to know — he would never have been able to crack the Kings top eight defensemen — not now, not five years from now. As far as Klefbom, who knows…he’s a tall child. I don’t see how he’s playing in the NHL before 2015, and maybe by 2018-19 — if you’re lucky — he’ll approximate what Penner already is, a perennially 20-30 goal scoring power forward.
So, as far as I’m concerned, you gave us Penner for nothing.
and then on this one too
The reason I have been advocating buying-out Smyth for the last several months is that I was sure no GM would be so stupid as to take on that ridiculous cap hit. I was wrong about that. For you to say “you” “fleeced” “us” suggests the Kings somehow came out worse for wear. Follow the bouncing ball:
(1) Smyth is slow, old, and possibly a locker-room problem. His value was only on the powerplay, which needed to be overhauled since it sucked.
(2) Smyth’s huge cap hit was such a liability that Lombardi was able to acquire him for a waiver-wire pick-up and an albatross contract nobody wanted. Lombardi then took that liability and sent it to you, for…nothing.
(3) The Kings needed to get rid of Smyth’s cap hit in order to sign Gagne. Because of that fact, Lombardi did not want to take back any player with a salary. He wanted to give him away. Do you see that? Lombardi prefers just taking the late-round pick to taking the late round pick and having to take some injured guy. Because whoever he was going to have to take back from Edmonton he was going to buy out anyway.
(4) So the Kings sent you (1) a caphit albatross, (2) a first round bust and (3) a pick you turned into a child that might play in the NHL in five years, and you sent us (1) a guy who is going to score 20-30 goals and doesn’t suck on defense and (2) the cap space we needed to sign the player we wanted.
Wait till this year.
LMAS
I think you missed the joke which was Smyth coming back.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
Nope, joke is on me
I intended for comment to show up above in response to one of the Oilers777’s comments.
But you right about Penner, nothing ventured and LA certainly did not need a contract player in return.
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
you’re last point is fair, but i have absolutely no faith in penner and i find it hard to believe that he will be a better player than last year
I’m an optimist when it comes to Penner. He has averaged around 25 goals and 50 points a season throughout his career, and if he produces that this year, it will be better than the Kings other options. Of course, it’s also a contract year for him, and players have a tendancy to have career years when their future salary is one the line.
I believe in Penner, too. He wasn’t brought in to be “the guy,” but then Kopi and Williams go down, and bam.
Bottom line, they needed a LW — and the trade market wasn’t bustling, either. I can’t fault them for making that move, even if it doesn’t work out.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
"Doesn't work out"
is also kind of relative, no? I mean, “doesn’t work out” would most likely mean one more year of what we saw last year (mediocre, uninspired play, 20 goal pace) + the $4.5 million in cap space he clears out by leaving. It’s not like he’s some kind of albatross stuck on the books for years. It really wasn’t a high-risk trade at all, especially considering Teubert’s projections.
Plus, I truly believe we’ll see a different Penner this year.
Good points.
It did seem at the time like we were going to have to give up a roster player to fix the LW problem. I’m much happier that we could deal one of our excess D prospects and the pick; our farm system is stacked well enough. Both Teubert and Klefbom could wind up being very useful to the Oilers in the long run (they’ve been drafting well lately), but it doesn’t concern me; I agree with the decision that was made.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
Exactly.
I think with a healthy Kopitar, Penner would have probably produced more and not induced the wrath of Kings fans. No doubt he adds skill to the line-up and in a position of need. You could argue it was a trade DL had to make at the time. I have faith in Penner too and barring injury, I see him scoring 30+ goals easily this season.
On a completely unrelated note
I saw this story on yahoo sports and thought it would be interesting to Quisp as it goes back to the posts he had about who really owns the original Winnipeg Jets history and records.
Basically it says that Evander Kane has worn jersey #9 the past couple years and is now asking Bobby Hull to make sure it is ok if he still wears it since it was retired with the Jets who then moved to Phoenix.
My respect for Evander Kane grows! Just like when he took Matt Cooke to the cleaners.
It is a weird problem. I feel conflicted about it.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
He's just like Kyle Clifford
Except better…
The more you drink, the less gruesome I look.
Barca Blaugranes- SB Nation's FC Barcelona blog
@shadowking011
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