Weber award is $7.5MM (HIGHEST EVER); so Doughty deserves...
by Quisp on Aug 3, 2011 3:08 PM PDT
in Doughty Contract
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Whatever it was Drew Doughty was asking for, it just went up. I know it's apples-to-oranges. I know Shea Weber had arbitration rights and Doughty doesn't. I know Weber is a half a decade older. I don't think it matters. Of course it matters to Lombardi's argument. Doughty/Meehan can just argue that -- even if everything Lombardi is saying is true -- the market for defensemen just went up, for everyone.
And, that's just one more reason for Doughty to want to get to UFA sooner.
The Hockey News: Headlines: Predators defenceman Shea Weber receives US$7.5-million award in arbitration
A salary arbitrator has made Nashville Predators defenceman Shea Weber the NHL's highest-paid blue-liner. Weber received a US$7.5-million, one-year award on Wednesday. The decision came one day after the Predators captain went through team-elected arbitration. It's the highest award ever granted and puts Weber ahead of Florida Panthers defenceman Brian Campbell and his $7.14-million cap hit. Weber had 48 points (16-32) in 82 games last season and was a finalist for the Norris Trophy.
Not that I'm being a pessimist or a Cassandra. It's just that every time someone says "it'll get done, it'll get done," I think...why is that, again? I'm not saying we're doomed or anything. I just don't see why people are so sure this will all get worked out before training camp.
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6.8 per? Please?
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
My guess on the earlier post was $6.875 per.
www.prosportsblogging.com
by Great Ice-Pectations on Aug 3, 2011 3:22 PM PDT up reply actions
I agree that Lombardi’s job which was already really difficult just became far more difficult.
Also, many say that it can’t be DD’s fault as it probably comes down to Meehan. Well, maybe Meehan realized you don’t mess about too much with Steve Y, but somehow the Stamkos deal got done.
So why should this become such a drama at this point? There is simply no reason that this carries on and on, and I totally agree Quisp that now my guess would be that there won’t be a quick solution to the whole issue.
It’s just so totally unnecessary. Also, many many thanks for sure go out to whoever that was (Dale Tallon?) that gave Brian Campbell such a ludicrous contract. No difficulty there wrt Weber to make the point that Weber is better than Campbell. The inmates are running the asylum.
Someone on LAKI said he loves DD but if he’s traded so be it. I have to honestly say that I agree with that. I made the point that there is a huge disparity between the kid who felt sick when he saw DL talking to Sutter at the draft thinking that he wouldn’t be going to the Kings (his favorite team as a kid) and worked his tail off to make the nhl his first year……. and now?
I mean, to me it’s Such an extreme paradox that it makes one go…. well why should I care all that much? Of course I want the guy on the Kings…. but at what price?
This is the attitude I just don’t get. Doughty is a 21 year old defenseman with all the potential in the world, who has already accomplished a hell of a lot more than almost any other defensemen his age in NHL history. You quite simply do not let these guys go after just three seasons. If Lombardi does, he should be fired on the spot. We can think the world of Voynov, Hickey, Deslauriers, hell even Johnson – the truth is none of them will ever be as good as Doughty.
Who could you possibly get for Doughty that is comparable valuable, who will be willing to sign long term for less money to preserve the cap? We’ve already seen that Weber isn’t willing to take less to stay on his team long term. Ditto Parise. Stamkos took a little less to get to UFA quicker so he can bolt to the highest bidder. If you want players like Doughty, you have to pay them what they’re worth. And if Phaneuf gets $6.5, Weber gets $7.5, then Doughty comes in at 7.
And also, Number 6, I don’t see how Doughty’s attitude has changed from the kid who wanted to be a King all his life. So, just because of that, he should take less than every other player his caliber is getting?
Just to clarify my above comments, I believe that DL is smart enough to know he needs to get a deal done with Doughty, and will not even entertain the idea of trading him. Players like Doughty are rare, and DL knows it. It may well take until training camp, but he’ll get the deal done. It;s just a question of how long and how much. So I’m not advocating firing DL – just that if were stupid enough to trade Doughty, he’d deserve to be.
i dunno
i’m really no expert … in fact … quite the opposite …
i feel like Doughty should prove it a little more that’s all…. had he not taken a step backward last season i would probably be more inclined toward your thinking but to me 2 years does not a veteran make…
but I’m not arguing the kid’s talent … or worth ..
Saying you want him to prove more before he gets a long term, big money deal is one thing. Advocating trading him is quite another. I don’t have a problem if DL wants to keep the money down a bit and sign to three years or less. My main reaction was because of the rather blase attitude some have about trading Doughty, which is simply mind boggling to me. Still though, the Kings have almost $10 million in cap space next year, and because of Stoll, Penner, Mitchell next year, have cap flexibility moving forward. If someone can come up with a better plan to spend a significant portion of that money other than Doughty, I’m all ears.
i'm not sure how you can see those 2 points ase being exclusive
but hey .. like i said .. im no expert.
I also won’t be calling for Dean’s head if the kid is traded.
Not sure what you mean. One option has DL signing DD short term, with an eye on signing him long term later. The other has DD no longer a King. How are they not exclusive?
And if DL can get fair value for DD, then fine, trade him. But I have yet to read a trade rumor involving DD – even from the most out there sources – which I think the Kings come out ahead on. And yes, that includes a one for one swap for Stamkos. So, who would you trade him for that you think would make the Kings better, or at least equal, then they are with Doughty and comes in at less money, since that what this seems to be about – the dollar amount Doughty wants?
I'm really torn on this
On the one hand, I certainly don’t advocate breaking the cap management plan for any one player, no matter how good he is.
But on the other hand, the thought of the Kings losing yet another promising young defenseman before he reaches the full flower of his maturity is just heartbreaking, no matter what the reason. Sargent, Murphy, Sydor, Zhitnik — those are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. I mean, think of what it would have been like if Larry Murphy had spent even half of his career with the Kings, much less his entire career. And Doughty could turn out to be even better than him.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
I have yet to read a trade rumor involving DD – even from the most out there sources – which I think the Kings come out ahead on. And yes, that includes a one for one swap for Stamkos.
If you don’t think a Doughty-for-Stamkos swap would put the Kings ahead you are severely overestimating Doughty’s skill level. Stamkos is muhc more of an impact player than Doughty. He is farm ore skilled and plays a position (forward) where the Kings could still use some help (not as much now that they have Richards and Gagne, but Stamkos is another level above them), whereas Doughty plays a position where the organization is stacked with talent. None may be quite as good as him but a colleciton of really good defensemen making average money is more likely to win a championship than a team with one insanely overpaid great defensemen and a subpar group surrounding him.
If the Kings could have gotten Stamkos straight-up for Doughty they would have been pulling the wool over Yzerman’s eyes. There is no way any NHL GM would have accepted that trade.
The reason I don’t think Stamkos for Doughty works for the Kings is simple. Stamkos is a sniper, who scores as much as he does because of St. Louis. And he’s also incredibly streaky. Remember about 25 games into last season where Stamkos was on pace to score 50 in 50 – and then he didn’t even reach 50 for the whole season. Or remember how Stamkos was invisible for much of Tampa’s playoff run, not scoring at all until the second round.
I think back to what DL always says about building a championship team. You do it from the back out, and then add strength down the middle. With Kopitar-Richards, you have strength down the middle. With Doughty, you have your number 1 defensemen for year’s to come. Giving up a potential repeat Norris trophy winner for this generation’s Brett Hull isn’t worth it. But that’s just my opinon.
i don't really agree with anything you said about Stamkos
“And he’s also incredibly streaky”—after last season’s blazing start, yes he did fall off the map by comparison, but if you look at his game log, i don’t see how he’s any more “streaky” than your average 40-goal scorer, 90-point getter.
“Or remember how Stamkos was invisible for much of Tampa’s playoff run”—13 points in 18 games is invisible?
“not scoring at all until the second round”—he had his first point in Game 3 against Pittsburgh in the first round, and ended the series with a 2-2-4. he wasn’t as dominant offensively as he should have been for the Lightning, but i think you’re selling him much shorter than you need to.
You wanna tell me that to mah face?!
I stand corrected on his Stanley Cup stats. But, he was demoted to the third line in the playoffs. But, yes I do consider him streaky, and I do think that without St. Louis on his line, he gets way fewer goals. However, we can debate Stamkos all day, but now that he’s signed, he’s not being traded. And my original point was that I had not seen a singled rumored deal on even the craziest website that involves Doughty that makes sense for the Kings and Stamkos is the only player anyone has taken up arms in defense of.
Interesting analogy on Hull. Personally, I don’t think DL would ever trade Doughty for Stamkos straight up. He’s stated his blueprint for building his team starts from the back-end, which I take to mean that goalies > defensemen > forwards. It’s a sound strategy seeing how since the 2000 season, the majority of Stanely Cup champions have have Norris and/or HoF caliber defensemen on their team. I don’t think Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh or Carolina did but certainly Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Anaheim, and New Jersey.
..so be it
may have been me.
The Weber figure is breath taking. I figured 6.8…but this?!?
“Wow” is right. About the only thing I can see is more commercial interruptions.
Must reassess. Well, still unproven…Well…hell, I’m not the GM, it’s his damn problem..
Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?
the pessimist in me believes that drew wants more money over a shorter period, i.e. 7 for 2, rather than 6 for 5. i just made those numbers up as an example.
i think his generation wants to hit the ufa jackpot. in my mind its kind of disheartening.
and as someone(s) else said, drew hasnt really strung together enough seasons to warrant sheaweber money. i also agree that it doesnt matter. except to fans.
i don't think we're there yet, by a long shot, but
in the abstract hypothetical situation in which they can’t come to an agreement, Lombardi doesn’t have to sign him or trade him. Doughty has till 12-1 to sign or he doesn’t play this year. Doughty will be the one to blink first, or he won’t play. In this hypothetical, Lombardi is not going to cave, unless he’s forced to by AEG.
But like I said, we’re not there yet.
However, we’ll be there in four weeks if he’s not signed. I don’t think he will be.
Wait till this year.
@ Hollie
Look Hollie….. I know and understand how you perceived it when I said, then trade him if you have to. That’s just a very very personal statement from me. It doesn’t integrate all the other realities that you spoke of. I’m not at all saying you’re wrong. Not whatsoever.
I digress here a bit, but when I have problems, sometimes I remind myself that others have it far worse. But, that really doesn’t help. So for me to say that people can’t even get jobs and bring it into the DD situation is probably naive, stupid etc. But to me it is a reality. People are suffering. This guy is damned fortunate to A) have huge god given talent and B) to be able to make a fortune playing a GAME that he loves.
So, no it doesn’t sit well with me at all. But that doesn’t mean that should apply to you or any other Kings fan.
I’m just fed up with this sort of thing and if they trade him (which you, Quisp and I think others agree will Not happen), then OK. I wouldn’t cry if it happened.
Let me put it more bluntly…… Drew had a few awful games in the playoffs. That was only one series. Granted he’s only 21. Had I seen Absolute signs,…… this guy is the Key to a Stanley Cup than maybe I’d feel differently.
And let me say again to cover my behind……. YES, YES and YES. He has huge talent. Huge. Am I convinced that he has the maturity to develop that talent and use it in a constructive way. No I’m not. Remember how Tom Cruise said ‘show me the money’?
Well, for me it would be ‘show me the maturity, show me the leadership’ and then I’d probably be inclined to see things differently.
I don’t mean for this to be heated. It’s only very clearly my opinion. And also, I do agree w you or whoever said that there probably isn’t another dman in the Kings system who has the stuff that Doughty does. On that point I agree.
one more point
The usual comeback would be wrt his maturity level….. he’s only 21. That’s true. But I’ve seen Stamkos interviewed twice, and that guy is mature! He also exhibits leadership qualities without a doubt. Granted he’s a forward, but it doesn’t matter if he’s the trainer, because it’s not about where you play…… it’s something else.
I respect your opinion number 6, even if I don’t agree with it. Yes, people are suffering. I see it all the time. But that’s not relevant to Doughty’s situation. And we don’t really know how negotiations are going, and DL is as responsible for dragging this out as Doughty is. I’ve addressed why I’d rather have Doughty than Stamkos above, so I won’t go over it here, but maturity comes over time. Doughty is more mature than many 21 year olds, but no, he isn’t Toews level mature. But I continue to ask this to the people who wouldn’t mind to see Doughty traded. For who? Who is fair value, that the Kings could get and keep long term for less than Doughty?
Kings have plenty of cap space to get him under contract, with some left over for a deadline acquisition. Pay him his money. Penner, Stoll, & Mitchell come off after the season, so LA can still make a run at a scorer next summer if they so choose.
Pension Plan Puppets
I hope YouTube comes down to film this.
Penner, Stoll, & Mitchell come off after the season
Why assume these guys will be gone?
Penner’s $4.2M will probably be off the books — unless he transforms himself into Mr. Indispensable.
But Mitchell is a gem, and Stoll — who’s not exactly tripping over his beard — gives us plenty of bang for the buck. He plays 5-on-5, PP, and PK minutes, is all over the ice, is willing to scrap, is lethal in shootouts, is a character guy, and is far and away our best face-off man.
We don’t know how much he’ll want to stay. But the old saw about not laying out dough for a third-line center is meaningless when you’re dealing with a player this versatile.
Yes, one shouldn’t be quick to assume that the Kings will decline to re-sign all three of those guys. And that points up my problem with just giving Doughty the moon and the stars, if that’s what he wants: Whenever you throw huge amounts of money at one player, it inevitably affects your ability to keep a deep roster, and I think that a deep roster, at least as much as any other factor, gets you Cups. The Blackhawks had to shed much of their depth after their Cup year, and look what that did to them.
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
What will effect whether or not Stoll and Mitchell specifcally are resigned is how the kids below them do. How does Loktinov look this season heading into next? How close are Muzzin/Voynov/Hickey/Deslauriers are to be ready to jump into the NHL. And whether or not the Kings try to go out and sign Parise, who will be UFA. And of course, what the CBA does to the salary cap. However, if there’s enough room to keep both this year, and there is, there should be next year as well. I can’t see either of those guys commanding a big raise. Likely there new contracts will be for about the same as their current ones.
whether or not the Kings try to go out and sign Parise
Lamoriello is one of the sharpest GMs in hockey. I can’t see him losing Parise if he has any way of keeping him. Unloading Rolston’s contract was a blessing for the Devils.
Why is that, again? Because he likes playing hockey, and he likes playing for the Kings. But I think the holdup would be on Lombardi’s end if it gets to October.
I feel like the only one who’s not surprised by Weber’s award. They look at the comps’ salary, not cap hit, and he had everything a player could cite in his favor (captaincy, even!). But DL is dictating the slow pace of all
this; he had to know it could happen this way.
DL will say he hasn’t accomplished as much as Weber, and his agent will say he’s accomplished a lot at his young age and has more potential. Same old dance.
I hope he ponies up for long term. Replacing a top 10 D is difficult, and I don’t even want to think about how expensive Doughty will be in 2 to 4 years.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
by Niesy on Aug 4, 2011 4:30 PM PDT via mobile reply actions
There are two possibilities, really
1) Doughty/Meehan (from now on: Meeghty) are willing to hold out to get the most they can.
2) They aren’t willing to hold out.
I actually have a hard time thinking Doughty isn’t taking the Simmonds trade personally. Simmonds shipped out + Doughty needs to train harder and be a pro + we’re not willing to make you the highest paid King = hurt feelings. Yes, I understand that Doughty is sort of an adult, but I really don’t think he’s sitting around saying, “hey they traded my best friend and roommate, called me out publicly for being out of shape, and now he’s not willing to pay me as much or more than Kopitar…but everything’s great I love LA!”
I have no idea what Drew Doughty’s inner world is like. I have no idea how he thinks or what he wants or how he sees himself. For all I know, he would be fine with taking $12MM cash tax free to go play in the KHL for a year. Just to pick a nightmare scenario.
Wait till this year.
It’s fine to explore all the possibilities, but can I just say, you’re focusing on all the negative ones you can think of. :)
There was a fan posting somewhere after the Philly trade — I believe he was at the Stoll charity golf event, where Doughty and Schenn were present — who said Drew was resigned to seeing Simmonds go, but excited about Richards trade. So take that for what it’s worth.
I have no idea what his inner life is truly like, but he seems to me like an ordinary 21 year old, fun-loving rather than serious. Not ready to be in the stern adult phase yet. I can see him screwing around a little in the first part of the year and rubbing TM the wrong way. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t want to stay here, or he doesn’t want to win. He likes Cali, and also has other friends on the team.
I also don’t think it matters to him at all whether he makes more or less than Kopitar. And frankly, that talk is all coming from one reporter and is entirely centered on cap hit. Mike Richards will make more than $8 million in 2012-13, is anyone citing that as a benchmark and flipping out about that? No. I don’t think it’s significant.
This is agent and GM stuff.
In Dinglebarn We Trust -- JftC
I have no idea what his inner life is truly like, but he seems to me like an ordinary 21 year old, fun-loving rather than serious
I can buy that description of Drew. I know that Quisp has warned us (sensibly) about reading too much into this or that little thing that happens on the ice. But Drew seems to have a lot of enthusiasm and high spirits. I’ve noticed his habit of giving the goalie a big man-hug after a win. Nobody else does that. It’s noteworthy that he has that much pep left at the end of a game, playing as many minutes as he does. :-)
"I think you just outed yourself as Dean Lombardi. I knew it all along." — Rudy Kelly
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