Trade Deadline, part two: who should the Kings target?
by Quisp on Feb 1, 2012 10:43 AM PST
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In part one, I looked at the Kings reserve list and, to sum it up, decided that Jarret Stoll, Jack Johnson, Jonathan Bernier and Alec Martinez are the most eligible bachelors if the Kings are going to make a big splash in the next few weeks before the trade deadline. This is, of course, highly debatable. My own reasoning is in that previous post, but we can all debate it still in the comments here. Today, I want to start looking at potential targets. Yes, there's Zach Parise, and we'll get to him eventually. But, as the Blue Jackets are today's opponents, I thought we would start there.
People seem to think Jeff Carter is or ought to be on the move. Certainly, that trade is looking worse and worse in terms of public perception, and with the Blue Jackets' season in the toilet, it's no surprise his name is getting mentioned. The argument in favor of dealing for Carter is (1) he can fill the net with pucks, (2) his cap hit is reasonable, and (3) his value is at an all-time low, so he may be had for a relatively-low cost. Bonus (4): he's an ex-Flyer. The argument against is (1) he's injured (this could be in the other column, per the usual joke about Dean Lombardi liking to trade for injured players), (2) he may be locker-room poison, (3) he may be a bad influence on the Kings' kids, (4) he has behaved badly since being traded to Columbus, and (5) his contract expires a million years from now. Also, (6), trading for Carter essentially means that the Kings are not going to be able to acquire anybody else of that caliber this summer as our noses would be pressed flat against the cap ceiling (even after moving big salary the other way to bring him in). Oops, and (7): he has a no-move clause, so he would be very hard to shake once he's entered the bloodstream.
I am not opposed to dealing for Carter, under certain circumstances. Lombardi actually has a pretty good track record in his instincts regarding wounded players. Justin Williams was worth it (giving up Patrick O'Sullivan). Simon Gagne cost us nothing but cap space, space which is now freed up as long as Gagne doesn't suddenly become healthy the day after Lombardi uses his cap space to bring in someone else. Michal Handzus had one bad year while recovering from knee surgery and then was nothing less than the hub of the team defense for two years. Wait, three years. Alyn MacAuley (sp?) didn't work out, but didn't cost us anything either. Willie Mitchell has been a huge signing. Marco Sturm, well, that was just weird, but we got him for literally nothing and lost him to waivers, so I'm not too broken up about it. Bottom line: if Lombardi wants to take the Carter plunge, as far as evaluating his injury status, I will play along.
But I seriously doubt Lombardi will be able to overcome his aversion to players who might be a bad influence on his youthful core. If he didn't want Dany Heatley, why would he want Carter and his carousing and pouting and whatever else? If he had a couple of years left on his deal and didn't have a no-move, I could see Lombardi being willing to part with some mid-level assets to bring him in. But ten years is a long time to be saddled with a problem contract.
As I said in the comments of another blog yesterday, it's impossible for me (on the outside) to know exactly how toxic Carter's contract is right now, or to gauge his health, or his real attitude...therefore, it's impossible to know what his actual value is. I think it's pretty likely that someone out there will eventually be willing to steal Jeff Carter for a song, and they may well benefit from a few 30-40 goal seasons and cause everyone else in the league to curse their existence because they didn't grab him when they had the chance. And it's easy to be tempted by a potential 40-goal-scoring sniper when your team couldn't possibly be more in need of exactly that.
Having said I'm not opposed to trading for Carter under certain circumstances, I now realize I'm not even sure what those circumstances would be. I guess I would have to have personal secret inside information that he's not the poison he's supposed to be, that he's really just misunderstood, that he hasn't suffered a catastrophic injury (shoulder separation being potentially devastating), and it would also help if every other GM in the league was so unwilling to part with assets that Lombardi were able to get Carter for pieces that are easy(-ish) for us to part with. Say, Stoll and Martinez. Under those circumstances, I'm okay with it.
But I'm more interested in the following:
Scott Howson, having made this horrible trade (bringing Carter in, I mean), and having watched his team crap out beyond every Blue Jackets fan's worst nightmare, may actually have no prospects of getting rid of this guy. I'm not sure about this, because there is always another desperate idiot willing to put the blinders on. But let's just look at the scenario in which Carter is in fact untradeable. If that's the case, GM Howson is doomed, isn't he? He has killed the season. He may have saddled the team with an albatross that will taint the next decade of Blue Jackets hockey. He may have no choice but to convince himself that Carter is actually a great guy and he just needs to ride out the storm.
Under these circumstances, could be be tempted to deal Rick Nash? Normally, I would say he would be insane to do so. But he may be insane. He may be desperate to keep his job. And one way to do that would be to deal Nash in such a way that it not only totally remakes the team and gives them hope for the future.
As good as Rick Nash is, his tenure in Columbus has not been chock full of successes. It's reasonable to wonder if the fans couldn't be won over by a blockbuster deal that was a game-changer, that actually gave the team hope for next season. Because the alternative is the prospect of $14MM tied up in two guys who have no chemistry.
So, what would the Kings have to part with to pry Nash from Howson? It ain't going to be Stoll and Martinez. Columbus needs a goalie. So let's just start with the idea that Jonathan Bernier is part of this package. I don't want to lose Bernier, but I also don't want him to whither on the vine. So let's pretend. Bernier, and who else?
I really don't see any other possibility than Jack Johnson. He's attractive trade bait. He's potentially a super-star. He's nowhere near his prime. It's enough salary to make it make sense to the Kings. He's not a rental. And the Kings can probably afford to lose him. Probably. Slava Voynov, etc..
Johnson and Bernier. Is that enough to make Howson say yes? Probably not. I actually think to make this happen, you have to make an offer that Howson says yes to before he can think about it. An "offer he can't refuse."
An example of that kind of offer would be Johnson, Bernier, Andrei Loktionov and a 1st. I would never stop crying. Same with swapping Tyler Toffoli for Loktionov in that deal. I would cry, but would I get over it, and would Howson bite? Not sure. He miiiiight. And we would be left with:
Nash - Anze Kopitar - Williams
Dustin Penner - Mike Richards - Dustin Brown
Brad Richardson - Stoll - Trevor Lewis
Kyle Clifford - Colin Fraser - Trent Hunter
Mitchell - Voynov
Martinez - Matt Greene
Jeff Zatkoff (maybe Steve Mason?)
I don't know. This looks okay for this year, sort of. But next year? Stoll and Penner are probably moving on. Re-signing Stoll as the third line center is kind of depressing, especially when compared to a fully operational Andrei Loktionov. What about the Toffoli variation? Does Howson go for that?
Again, maaaaybe. And then we have:
Nash - Kopitar - Williams
Stoll - Loktionov - Lewis
Clifford - Fraser - Richardson
Mitchell - Voynov
Martinez - Greene
I love Tyler Toffoli. Love. I think if we lose him we will have Matt Moulson times-two sized regret. But the roster above is a huge upgrade over what we have now. I just don't know if Johnson, Bernier and Toffoli would be enough.
But what about this:
Johnson, Brown and Bernier. That's quite possibly over-payment. I think that certainly qualifies as "an offer he can't refuse." I don't even know if I would want to do make that deal, from the Kings' point of view. But let's consider it anyway:
Nash - Kopitar - Williams
Stoll - Loktionov - Lewis
Clifford - Fraser - Richardson
Mitchell - Voynov
Martinez - Greene
I don't know who to put in Brown's place. I can see believing in Toffoli to such a degree that you think he can step in next year as RW2. That's a gamble. But I can see it. And if (another gamble) Gagne comes back healthy next year, that could be a huge upgrade of firepower over the current line-up.
Nash - Kopitar - Williams
Gagne? - Richards - Toffoli?
Lewis - Loktionov - Oscar Moller?
Clifford - Fraser - Jordan Nolan?
That's a lot of question marks. And the team without Brown suddenly gets smaller, even with the addition of Nash. I don't know. Maybe Johnson, Bernier and Toffoli is the better move. Either way, I will cry, and there would be much gnashing of teeth. Hey, "gnashing" of teeth. Is that a pun people have made before? Probably.
Seems like a good place to throw it open for discussion. What do you think?
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I like Nash and agree that it’s probably going to take Johnson, Bernier, and at least a pick/prospect to pry him from Columbus. And if the prospect is Loktionov, I wouldn’t do it.
Unless Columbus has Carter going in a separate deal, I don’t see them trading Nash. Can you imagine the outcry if they trade Nash, the face of the franchise and keep Carter, the face of what’s going on in Columbus this season?
+1
An interesting discussion, for sure. The belief here is that Carter could be had for a song, but to get Nash you’d have to severely overpay. We’re talking about a guy who is the Captain, the face of the franchise, the only marketable player nationally/internationally the organization has ever had.
As bad as this season has been, it would be a total PR nightmare to trade Nash unless you were very clearly winning the deal.
The other wild card is this: Nash LOVES being in Columbus. It’s a smaller market with a friendly media in which he can exist without being constantly hounded. It was always assumed he’d want to go home to Toronto when he was coming up on FA two summers ago, but I think he’d wither under that media scrutiny. In other words, Nash has the right to refuse a trade, and I would think the deal would have to be very, VERY good for Howson even to go to him and bring it up.
I would assume it would have to be AT LEAST Bernier, Johnson, PTBNL, and a 1st.
Just MHO.
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Yeah, for what it would take to get it done, I wouldn’t want them to offer it in the first place.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
I would trade Johnson for a winger — the right winger! A move I suspect would only be popular with half of the fans.
Then I’d seriously consider letting Quick go if he wants too much money, a move that would be popular with almost no one. But that’s how I’d allocate cap space.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
I agree with the 1st move, and also the 2nd move IF he wants too much money. “How much is too much?” will depend a lot on performance in the playoffs if we get there. I was underwhelmed the last 2 years.
by Passemoilapuck on Feb 1, 2012 4:10 PM PST up reply actions
That’s the thing. If I set aside the emotional part of me that wants to give Quick a gigantic hug and dance a jig because we finally have a competent #1 goalie, there are the numbers. And we’ve had a large enough sample.
If you go to save percentage, which is more a reflection of a goalie’s talent than wins or goals against average, Quick’s entire career comes out at .916. That’s average. Average is good. But is it worth $5-6 million? Look at Ryan Miller. Buffalo could easily go with Enroth and use some of that cap space to go after a center, but Miller’s contract is still hanging around as a problem. They had one exceptional year for a lot of money, and average stats before that.
This year the Kings’ exceptional penalty kill—which is luck plus goaltending and defense—is bumping Quick into Vezina territory. Now goalies usually hit their prime at his age, so you could say he’s been improving with experience. But will he always be Vezina Quick? Would another goalie, given as many regular starts, manage to put up something close to that and for a hell of a lot less?
It sounds nuts but if we trust Ranford and our defense and our highly rated goalie pool they should consider it.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
One must also consider with Quick that the Kings have a defensive philosophy and probably the best defensive corps in the league in front of him. How much are those two things helping his numbers? There is no question that he makes some remarkable human-pretzel saves but I would wager that if you put him on at least 25 other teams in the league you’d notice a decline in his statistics.
probably the best defensive corps in the league in front of him.
Seriously?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 6:00 PM PST up reply actions
I think a lot of our forwards sacrifice offense for defense.
But go on and make your case, Geoff!
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Make my case? 5 teams give up less shots per 60 at even strength and 3 give up less goals. Both the Sharks and Blues give up fewer goals and fewer shots, so I’d start by proving that the Kings defense is better than the team that is making Brian Elliott an All-Star.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 6:22 PM PST up reply actions
The Blues and Sharks have definitely generated more pressure.
Please don’t take it the wrong way. I simply wanted to see who you thought was best and why.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Oh, I’m not falling into that trap.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 6:59 PM PST up reply actions
Name one team, argue over the comparison between the Kings and that team rather than over whether or not there is a better team.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 8:01 PM PST up reply actions
You’re the one with the firm beliefs about where you rank the Kings, not me. Asking you to clarify them is not a trap.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
by Niesy on Feb 2, 2012 3:44 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
Nah, my firm believe is “they are not the best.” That’s rather pliable, as it puts them in any one of 29 spots.
But if I were to say “Pittsburgh’s defense is clearly better”, then we’re arguing over Paul Martin instead of how bad Jack Johnson is, how likely it is that Slava Voynov continues to play like a top-4 defenseman, and whether Matt Greene is actually a real person.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 2, 2012 5:13 AM PST up reply actions
It’s also interesting to me that under Murray’s failed attempt at ‘opening things up’ the Kings gave up more shots against than they generated overall. They weren’t that way last year (where they were third at 27.9 SA/G), and they aren’t that way now under Sutter.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Yeah, I understand SA isn’t the best metric for determining talent of defense corps, but it got my point across.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 7:03 PM PST up reply actions
Aw come on, I like hearing people’s criteria set out. Nothing sinister about it.
And anyhow, shot suppression is back to normal in Kings land. If that matters to you. :)
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
I start with limiting shots. If I had scoring chance data, I’d start there, but I don’t. I’d then look to how well each pairing is handling their assignments. Last year’s Flyers were quite impressive because they had a third pairing that was destroying bottom-six forwards. Not so much this year.
The Kings have Drew Doughty destroying top competition. Their #2 and #3 defensemen according to difficulty of competition are Rob Scuderi and Jack Johnson. I like Rob Scuderi, but he’s not a #2 defenseman. And Jack Johnson is brutal.
In close games, the Kings get 52.2% of all shot attempts. When Johnson is on the ice, the Kings only get 48.6%. I’m supposed to believe he’s a top-3 defender on the best defense corps in the league?
Yes, Jack Johnson – and I say this as a huge Michigan fan – goes a long way to punching a hole in the argument that the Kings have the best blueline in the NHL.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 8:25 PM PST up reply actions
So Stuart is good? The Red Wings have two good defensemen. Also, Paul Martin drops the Penguins down like 3 slots. You should have quit with San Jose.
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 1, 2012 8:43 PM PST up reply actions
You must be joking. Paul Martin has faced top-6 competition each of the last five years, with a CorsiRel of 5.5 in all of them except this year. He faces top opposition, controls play, and puts up points. While his zone starts are favorable, his zone finishes are outstanding. Paul Martin is actually a top-pairing defenseman.
But I’d love to hear how Jack Johnson is a top-3 NHL defenseman.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 8:48 PM PST up reply actions
Im sure if you are in Philly then you actually watch Paul Martin play. He’s horrible. He has no shot, can’t hit, can’t clear a crease and to boot, he looks weird. Scuderi and Mitchell are better defensively than everyone on the Penguins (although Michalek is right there)
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 1, 2012 8:58 PM PST up reply actions
Scuderi and Mitchell are better defensively than everyone on the Penguins (although Michalek is right there)
Yes, Willie Mitchell is better than Kris Letang.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 9:08 PM PST up reply actions
Martin-lover
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 2, 2012 6:17 AM PST up reply actions
Trying to rank “defensive cores” is fucking dumb as hell because defense is more than defensemen. Also, who the fuck cares.
Yeah because normally we talking about really interesting and important shit that everyone cares about in a blog comments section
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 2, 2012 6:40 PM PST up reply actions
About competition rankings
Microstats aren’t very good at catching juggled assignments. For a good portion of the season the heavy lifting was done by Mitchell. Mitchell and Voynov when Drew was out, Mitchell and Doughty for a long time before Scuderi.
JJ is a problem on the second pair, but I don’t understand why you are dismissing Scuderi as a fit for Doughty.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
by Niesy on Feb 2, 2012 3:53 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
No, they aren’t very good at catching juggled assignments. But they do capture the quality of opposition by the end of the year quite well, regardless of juggling.
And I am not dismissing Scuderi as a fit for Doughty. I’m dismissing Scuderi as a #2 NHL defenseman on the best defense in the League. He’s certainly top-4, and I wouldn’t even argue that he’s a #3 defenseman. And if you said he’s an average #2, I wouldn’t even argue.
But if someone is going to make the claim that the Kings have the best top-6 in the League, I’m going to take issue with the best team in the League having Jack Johnson and Rob Scuderi as their #2 and #3 guys.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 2, 2012 5:16 AM PST up reply actions
so I’d start by proving that the Kings defense is better than the team that is making Brian Elliott an All-Star.
Crap. Argument over before it even began.
Because having a Kings fan say that their team is the best in the NHL, making Jon Quick look good, is different?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 8:06 PM PST up reply actions
Yes seriously.
Doughty, Johnson, Voynov, Mitchell, Scuderi, Green.
No team in the NHL has a better top 6 defensemen than that.
Period.
Add in the fact that the Kings’ forwards include should-be Selke candidate Kopitar, penalty killing beast Richards, and hit machine Brown, not to mention guys like Lewis and Richardson on the third line, and even the forwards are good defensively.
I’m honestly shocked you think a team with Slava Voynov and Matt Greene as the third pairing is the deepest in the league.
Lidstrom, Kronwall, White, Stuart, Ericsson, Kindl
Martin, Orpik, Niskanen, Michalek, Engelland, Lovejoy, Letang
Those are just two teams whose top 6 I would pick before L.A.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 8:12 PM PST up reply actions
How much of Voynov and Greene have you seen? I’d definitely take VV over Kindl. Lidstrom is obviously better as a number one though.
Michalek is awesome, Engelland, meh.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
by Niesy on Feb 2, 2012 3:40 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
None. But that’s a pretty weak argument when saying he’s better than 29 other teams’ third pairing guys, many of whom Garrett has never seen.
Engelland is meh, but Michalek, Letang, Martin, Orpik, Niskanen beat any top-5 the Kings could put together.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 2, 2012 5:18 AM PST up reply actions
One must also consider with Quick that the Kings have a defensive philosophy and probably the best defensive corps in the league in front of him
That’s why Tim Thomas is the most overrated players this side of Toews
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 1, 2012 6:09 PM PST up reply actions
Is their defensive philosophy “Give up the 4th most shots on goal per 60 minutes”? It’s hard to believe Tim Thomas is overrated because his defense is so good.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 6:23 PM PST up reply actions
It’s pretty easy, actually.
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 1, 2012 7:26 PM PST up reply actions
I would trade Johnson for a winger — the right winger! A move I suspect would only be popular with half of the fans.
James van Riemsdyk is the hope.
I’m sure Flyers fans would wail but that’s a ‘paid for potential’ contract in itself. Plus there’s the concussion. The owner is always casting off his new toys so that might work.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
You’d be surprised what Flyers fans think of van Riemsdyk.
Or maybe I should just say it all depends when you ask.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 4:51 PM PST up reply actions
Oh dear. I don’t actually know, in truth. I got sad reading things about Schenn so I just stopped.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
He was on the block in November 2010, and people were fine with it. He had a monster playoffs, and people loved him. So much that his potential contract was deemed a bargain. Then he didn’t keep up the point per game pace, and people are disappointed again. But they still aren’t ready to trade him for Schenn straight up, which is ridiculous.
It’s like he’s their horse to kick and nobody elses.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 5:00 PM PST up reply actions
Damn. Well. That sounds a lot like what happened to Richards.
I still love Schenn and Simmonds, so I hope they won’t suffer too many love/hate rollercoasters. Or if they do that they can ignore it.
I’m afraid I get too protective and den mothery about players I’ve never even met! But I do want them to be happy.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
haha, I know how you feel. I’m a fan of players more than teams, which gets me in trouble out in Philly.
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 5:34 PM PST up reply actions
Way to generalise about us on other teams’ blogs.
Don’t worry Niesy, there are Flyers fans who like JVR through thick and thin thanks to his potential. Geoff likes to view us as much more irrational beings. I’ll admit a larger proportion of Flyerdom has been harsh on Schenn, but that was predicted considering who he was traded for. Nonetheless, you’ll find comments on Schenn are far more patient now, although most Flyers fans would rate Couturier above him.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 2, 2012 3:55 AM PST up reply actions
Gee, thanks for clearing up that “people” doesn’t mean “every Flyers fan”.
Maybe next time I have to be more careful so as not to hurt your feelings, and say “there are some fans, who are irrational, but not all Flyers fans, since I would hate to generalize and have you interpret ‘people’ too broadly’, who…”
Would your butt stop hurting if I said that instead?
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by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 2, 2012 5:20 AM PST up reply actions
Haha, they’re usually a good place, trust me. I saw Geoff’s performance here, and decided to troll him.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 2, 2012 2:49 PM PST up reply actions
“People” would imply the majority no?
So much that his potential contract was deemed a bargain. Then he didn’t keep up the point per game pace, and people are disappointed again. But they still aren’t ready to trade him for Schenn straight up, which is ridiculous.
Do you think it’s a possibility that “people” are all about JVR’s potential? That their view is inherently consistent:
- JVR’s got a lot of potential to break out this season, hence his contract is good
- JVR’s looked slow on the ice and hasn’t been putting up many points. He’s unfortunately injured too. I’m disappointed because I was expecting him to justify the new contract this season
- JVR’s still got a lot of potential, even though this season hasn’t been great, therefore I wouldn’t like to trade him for Schenn, as I believe we should keep him on the Flyers.
Simon Gagne AND Mike Richards may move between towns, wear new jerseys and call different arenas home but, at the end of the day, they will both always be Philadelphia Flyers.
One day Sean Couturier will win the Conn Smythe. You heard it here first.
by PursuitOfLappyness on Feb 2, 2012 2:53 PM PST up reply actions
He’s paid $7.8 million dollars a year, hogs the puck so they wouldn’t be able to play him with Kopitar, and his best goal scoring days are likely behind him.
6 freaking years left at $7.8! With a NMC. That was signed before the cap-bending era of contracts, but it still blows. A guy like Hossa is making $7.9 in real money, but his cap hit is helping Chicago out tremendously.
I am fine with high cap hits for one young stud center and one young stud defensemen who are too young to have fake years tacked on but that’s it. We need to get in on some of this frontloaded rule-bending action this offseason before the current CBA expires, or trade for some winger with a better contract.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Watch All Star Games and the Olympics. That Rick Nash (i.e., one with actual talent around him) is a completely different player.
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He is very talented. But my point is the Kings can’t afford two cap hits near/at $7 million (Doughty and Kopitar) and then add one that’s almost $7.8 million. Not just now, but for the way the team is structured going forward.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Sorry, i was actually replying to the “Rick Nash sucks” comment. :-)
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"I will say anything to be funny, often in the most horrible situations, which is one reason [a] good [woman] so far [has] been very sorry on occasion to have married me." --Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
If he didn’t want Dany Heatley, why would he want Carter and his carousing and pouting and whatever else?
He didn’t want Dany Heatley because he doesn’t like players that request trades — the reasoning being that they are players with no loyalty, and it won’t be long before they are unhappy again. Heatley’s not been a locker room problem in SJ or Minny (Havlat was the one who pouted and fought openly with Koivu, really). Heatley’s just underproducing and expensive.
Carter was extremely unhappy to be lied to and traded to Columbus, which is natural. I don’t know if he’s requested a trade; they’ve denied that.
I’m also not sure what “locker room poison” is defined as, but it’s thrown around a lot. In the case of Philly rumor mongers I feel reluctant to paint Carter with that brush, especially since the stuff about Richards has been shown to be pure nonsense. But I accept that Lombardi and Hextall could know more about the situation and have all the insider info they need.
If there are no concerns there, which I will leave to their judgment, passing over a chance to get a scorer like Carter seems pretty absurd. Especially on the grounds that we might miss out on some free agent over the summer. Four years in a row of striking out in free agency ought to temper expectations there! There’s always next year, and the next, and the next…we may have been waiting all our lives for a player like Parise to hit the market, but he sure hasn’t been waiting around for us.
And it’s not just an issue of the Kings being attractive enough. When you look at the top six of Vancouver and San Jose, who have been legit contenders in the troublesome Pacific time zone for years, you see that their firepower has either been drafted or acquired via trade. You can get the same moolah and cushier travel / better family time elsewhere.
They need to improve their top six but trading is probably a better option. Trading for a currently injured Carter could wait until the offseason, if that’s even of interest; then you wouldn’t have to wonder where Parise will be living either. If everyone in the front office still has a job.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
I’m also not sure what "locker room poison" is defined as, but it’s thrown around a lot. In the case of Philly rumor mongers I feel reluctant to paint Carter with that brush, especially since the stuff about Richards has been shown to be pure nonsense. But I accept that Lombardi and Hextall could know more about the situation and have all the insider info they need.
This is all excellent. What’s funny is that Carter was never labeled as the cancer in Philly; that was Richards. Now that Carter is being labeled a cancer in Columbus, people are rewriting history to say he was a cancer in Philly.
In my opinion, the Flyers locker room splintered when the team traded Scottie Upshall, breaking up the “Old City Gang”. When they brought in Pronger, the splinter became a rift. The Olympics patched up the rift enough to go on a run, but the team just couldn’t survive with Pronger and Briere on one side, Richards and Carter on the other. But that’s just a theory (I’m in the minority, but I’m not alone).
Long story short (too late!), I really think Richards + Carter + Gagne + Stevens is win waiting to happen.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 4:57 PM PST up reply actions
What’s funny is that Carter was never labeled as the cancer in Philly; that was Richards.
The weirdest thing about it all is that Pronger DID have that rep before he became a Flyer, and now that never seems to touch him. This entire summer was bizarro world.
I’m sure he and Richards clashed but I found a couple of stories where Richards was defending guys like Giroux against Pronger’s yelling. That sure sounds like a terrible guy in the room.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Yup. But in Philly, Pronger walks on water blood.
Man-crushin' on Boucher since 1999 and Matt Calvert since May 2010
Broad Street Hockey - Makin' it look mean since 1967.
SB Nation Philly - Associate Editor
by Geoff Detweiler on Feb 1, 2012 5:40 PM PST up reply actions 1 recs
I’d rather get anthrax in the mail than Jeff Carter, and I think you want to give up way too much for Nash.
by lowrydin on Feb 1, 2012 11:30 AM PST reply actions 1 recs
I will say this: if Carter is moved soon at a reasonable price, and the Kings aren’t in on it, I would think that it’s because they believe in Richards more than Carter.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
yeah, that seems more likely. Is he UFA at the end of the season?
OTOH, if the Yotes keep playing like last night and can drop far enough from a playoff spot, I could see them being sellers and would love to have Whitney for the post-season. And if we have to give anything for him, I wouldn’t worry about the fact that they’re in our division, because they probably won’t be next season (bring back the nordiques already!).
by Passemoilapuck on Feb 1, 2012 1:13 PM PST up reply actions
yeah, that seems more likely. Is he UFA at the end of the season?
yes and his current cap hit is 2.5MM
It would be funny if we wound up with Whitney after all. The Kings wanted him when he was a Hurricane and he and his agent insisted on a three year deal or he wouldn’t waive his clause at the deadline. LA said no way.
Now he’s on a two year deal so they’d be essentially trading for one year + a postseason again!
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
So, if not Carter (because he’s potentially a cancer and unmovable), and not Nash (because he’s overpaid and/or just costs our team too much), then who? Parise? I would kill to have Parise on our team next year, but guess what? Every team would. And many of them, can offer more money and more security with respect to winning than we can. Does anyone here feel real confident that we’d be able to land him in the off season? And there’s really no one else that touches these 3 guys that we have a shot of getting in the near future.
So who do you gamble on?
Personally, I think our chances of getting Parise are so slim as to be non existent. I think there is little to no chance that CBJ even move Nash. But, it would be a hefty price, both in assets and cap hit. That leaves Carter. He can likely be had at little cost (if rumor reports are true) and we have several guys with close ties that can vouch for him (or not).
I would go after Carter, as long as guys like Richards, Stevens, and Murray can back up his character, and go from there. If we wind up with a guy who has bad character issues, is that any worse than parting with Bernier, Johnson, and Loktinov+?
I just don’t see how Colombus would do Stoll+Martinez for Carter. Because 30 games from now (at the end of the Jackets’ season), this would likely become Martinez for Carter, as Stoll would likely sign somewhere else. Ideally, a city where supermodels retire – and I doubt that’s Colombus.
They’ve given a lot, too much to get Carter, and the idea of only getting Martinez in return a year later would be pretty sad. In a sense, if they are willing to do it, then you gotta wonder how much of a locker room cancer Carter is right now.
Ideally, a city where supermodels retire – and I doubt that’s Columbus.
Have you ever been to Columbus? I have literally never been to a city where I saw a greater percentage of the population be incredibly beautiful young women. I don’t know what they put in the water there but it’s miraculous. (And no, I am not joking)
I believe it's called
a college town. Ohio State coeds. stoll could be convinced i think for cash also.
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Feb 1, 2012 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
well a college city more likely i guess
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Feb 1, 2012 1:07 PM PST up reply actions
I’ve been there and did not share the same experience. Like, not at all. I will say that I was mainly walking the halls of an insurance company, so that may not be where the retired supermodels hang out.
That being said, I somehow think Stoll would love Montreal.
by Passemoilapuck on Feb 1, 2012 1:06 PM PST up reply actions
Columbus is a great city with a great fanbase. But it is fun to joke about Stoll’s history with Rachel Hunter et al :)
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
Columbus is a great city and their fans do love that team. Which is part of why I don’t wanna see the Kings (or anyone else) steal Nash from them. Their fans don’t deserve that. It would be like the Kings trading Kopitar because they have continually crapped out in the first round the last several years.
As has been said, Rick Nash is the face of the Blue Jackets franchise and I can’t see them moving him. Yes, they need a goalie because the Mason gamble has not worked at all and it never hurts to have a top flight defenseman, but remove Nash from that lineup and they have no offense anymore (and as the Kings have been demonstrating for the last 4 months a team needs offense to win.
Adding Brown to the deal doesn’t really add what Columbus needs. Toffoli and Loktionov are still both pretty big gambles.
Seeing as how Columbus really has no top line forward in their prospect pool I can’t see them doing a deal for Rick Nash that doesn’t include a high first round pick (to make up for losing last yera’s top ten pick to Philly) or a young forward who can score. Toffoli might be that guy but Loktionov and Brown aren’t. Personally I’d rather the Kings have Toffoli playing with Kopitar next year on the top line as a rookie on an entry level contract than Nash making 8 million a year.
Why would the Kings give up both Johnson and Bernier? As it stands, with the Carter situation being what it is, there is no reason for LA to give up more than Bernier. I would see them adding Penner to make the money work. He’s off the Columbus books at the end of the season anyways, so it’s a wash.
The Jackets need a goaltender for the present and future, and I doubt Schneider or Lindback are available. Aside from that, Vancouver couldn’t take on any salary that would come along with any worthwhile player that Columbus had to add. Lombardi would have to know that the Jackets options were limited.
If that happened I’d want them to take Johnson because a defensive core headlined by James Wisniewski and Jack Johnson would be the funniest thing in the entire world.
by RudyKelly on Feb 1, 2012 1:37 PM PST up reply actions 2 recs
2nd pair of MA Bergeron and Kurtis Foster just for sh*ts and giggles.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Feb 1, 2012 1:49 PM PST up reply actions
I wouldn’t trade Bernier for either of them, I’m just saying that if the Kings traded Bernier for Carter I’d want them to take Johnson too.
yeah i don't want to trade bernier either, seriously
i’m just trying to think outside my own prejudices
and also imagine some f—-ing goals
via LAKi:
The bigger problem is that the line of center Andrei Loktionov and wingers Brad Richardson and Trevor Lewis needs an identity. If they’re ceding the "stopper line’’ role to the Richards line, they need to score.
Why not try flip flopping wingers on the Richards/Loktionov lines? If Richards is going to be primarily used as a stopper line (also it should be noted that of late the puck possesion numbers that line has produced has be woeful at times) why not put Richardson and Lewis on that line, both of whom are fast, defensively responisble forwards. Then you give Loktionov more size and skill on his wings to utilize his playmaking abilities.
worth a shot. though I think the line’s puck control of pens, lokti, and stoll would still be horrible.
"And in net, number 39, DAAAAAAN CLOOOOUTIER"
"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
by TradedForAPick on Feb 1, 2012 3:13 PM PST up reply actions
If the Kings show improvement, as patient as Dean is, we may see nothing being moved.
Dean has survived plenty worse times, and done nothing. He might feel he has the team he wants, and is waiting for them to work their way out of it.
Where is this Carter is poison stuff coming from?
Other than media speculation or bloggers I haven’t seen or heard anything concrete that Carter is a problem child. He was bummed to leave Philly but so was Richards and all the quotes I saw from both of them was just that they signed long term deals hoping to stay in Phill. And both were disappointed in how they were or were not told about trade or reasons for the trade by Holmgren.
So where else is there any real evidence? Unlike Heatley whose feuds w/ coach/GM were pretty public.
And without any juicy details or public statements I discount these stories.
For one unhappy players usually make some kind of public statement whether they mean too or get caught saying something they may regret. Or their agent does or you hear of some argument w/ Coach. Or you see it in their production or other on ice behavior. Look at the Zidlicky stories going around now or Souray and Edmonton.
I think you’re right. The media looks at Columbus and goes “Oh boy did they fuck up last summer, so obviously they’re gonna blow that up now. And Carter must be unhappy to be playing for such a loser squad.”
I don’t buy it. The BJs are gonna get the first pick in the draft in June and will get another great young player. They’ll find themselves a goalie on the free agent market. And next year they’ll be contending for 8th. It’s gonna be a major uphill battle for them in a division where they have to compete with Detroit, Chicago, St Louis, and Nashville, but crazier things have happened. Who saw Colorado and Minnesota doing as well this season as they have? Or the Ottawa Senators being one of the top teams in the NHL after appearing ready to rebuild after last season??
I think one of the rumors was that he banged Hartnell’s wife. Dunno if it is true or just stupid shit.
It was posted by some random guy on a website with zero credibility, but it goes to show you how insidious rumors are. It’s been thoroughly debunked. There are studies that show even the act of refuting a rumor makes the charge ‘stickier’ in our memories.
Human nature is messed up.
Dinglebarnin' It JftC
by Niesy on Feb 2, 2012 3:34 AM PST via mobile up reply actions
I figured, just like the rumor going on about Penner last year because some random chick on facebook made a post about him. I think it says a lot about the people who instantly believed it (see all the posts on lakingsinsider), as in, they’re really fucking dumb.
Honestly, if a player’s rep is based on him partying and drinking, and he still puts up points and plays well, I don’t give a flying fuck.
I love Tuomu Ruutu
For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.
by Nut on Feb 1, 2012 7:27 PM PST up reply actions
Stoll and martinez and a pick for Carter. CBJ can’t say no. As for rick nash, NO.
by lnickerson88 on Feb 2, 2012 12:15 AM PST via mobile reply actions
It's difficult to see Bernier traded this year
Even though he’s the sexy pick and has the most trade value/return value.
Hammond’s LAKI article from a few weeks ago begs this same question:
“Bernier is also under contract through 2012-13, but might the Kings look to trade him before then?”
But, I feel like that’s a “no,” and only because of how Sutter responds to Hammond on the question of whether Bernier is being instructed to stay sharp.
“No, That’s his job.”
I think Bernier (by way of Sutter and possibly Lombardi/the whole organization) is being told to ride out this waiting period and see where things are at in a year when it gets closer to contract time for both he and Quick. Which means Bernie is also being told “his job” is to be the best damned bench warmer he can be. Of course, maybe that means a re-evaluation this coming offseason and he is shipped off to wherever for whoever. But, it’s hard to see a deal so enticing that Bernier is the main bargaining chip in a trade for someone like Nash, Carter, Parise, and maaaaaaybe even Ruutu since that would also mean dumping probably more than one of the guys Quisp mentions (Stoll/Johnson/etc) just to even out the cap issues.
Plus, assuming Deano does make that deal, and if he doesn’t deal Brown, you are looking at having your top six make ALL of the money on your team (like Anaheim), and then just plugging holes with cheap bottom six forwards (like Anaheim). Then you have no depth, and you have Dan Ellis playing goalie.
(7): he has a no-move clause, so he would be very hard to shake once he’s entered the bloodstream.
This came up over at Broad St. Hockey this morning. Carter’s no-move clause wouldn’t necessarily apply if he were traded to the Kings.
Per Article 11.8 of the CBA:
If the Player is Traded or claimed on Waivers prior to the no-Trade or no-move clause taking effect, the clause does not bind the acquiring Club. An acquiring Club may agree to continue to be bound by the no-Trade or no-move clause, which agreement shall be evidenced in writing to the Player, Central Registry and the NHLPA, in accordance with Exhibit 3 hereof.
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