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Dean Lombardi: "patience with" vs. "patience of"

The L.A. Kings Patience Ship Has Sailed " Surly & Scribe's L.A. Kings Hockey Blog

[...] Has Tim Leiweke told Dean Lombardi if the mandate of making the playoffs and getting past the first round is not met, the changes will start at the top? I don’t know. I do know this. For me [Bobby Scribe -- Q] the "patience" ship has sailed. "And I see the foundation put in place by Dave Taylor…" Dean Lombardi stated in April of 2006. That "foundation" is the L.A. Kings best forward, Anze Kopitar, its captain Dustin Brown and their most valuable player, Jonathan Quick. It also included Matt Moulson who Lombardi lost for nothing, Michael Cammalleri who he traded (but never replaced) as well as Brian Boyle.

Moulson was a Lombardi UFA signing, right before training camp in 2006. The remaining Taylor-era players are Kopitar, Brown, Quick and Scott Parse.

But I too have been thinking a lot lately about patience.

"I want to know what happened this season. How can a team fall off the map like this? It’s easy to pin it on the coaches, but the players have to face responsibility, too. They brought in a different coach and that didn’t work…" [That's Lombardi in 2006]

Ironic isn’t it that we are asking those same questions today? What happened this season? How can a team expected to compete for the Cup struggle this much? He replaced the coach but the offense still cannot produce.

It's an interesting comparison, 2011-12 to 2005-06, and not just because it's the last time a Kings coach was fired mid-season, or that the coach was named Murray, or that in both cases this Murray-named coach led the Kings to the playoffs (exactly twice, come to think of it) after long droughts, etc., etc..

The thing is, the '06 team didn't struggle the first five months of the season -- they were hot most of the year, and then, in the home stretch, total collapse. That team, on March 7 six years ago, was 35-23-5, sixth place, two points behind 4th place Calgary. Then, a hideous 5-12-0 run, after which they found themselves in 10th place, 8 points out of a playoff spot with two games to go (they won those, but so what?).

[...] What if the L.A. Kings do not make the playoffs this season? Dean Lombardi should be fired. What if the L.A. Kings make the playoffs and are again eliminated in the first round? Dean Lombardi should be fired. Harsh? I don’t think so. If the L.A. Kings were in the league’s top 5 and true contenders, where would a significant amount of the credit be bestowed? Dean Lombardi. He would be praised for his trades and signings, for his patience, building from the back-end out and for having the guts to acquire Mike Richards. If you know that to be the case, why should it be any different when his moves have failed to produce the intended result.

My question, in that case, will not be "should Lombardi be fired" but "who is the best available GM for the Kings"? I agree that Lombardi would and should get credit for the team's successes, and I also agree that he would and should get blame for the team's failures. I also think it's natural for people to want to cast the blame. But as far as that goes, the only "people" who matter are those two guys at AEG.

When the CEO of a major corporation spends significant money and uses the company’s resources without the intended result for many years, what happens to that CEO?

He gets an eight-figure bonus.

[...] The L.A. Kings are in a playoff spot. [...] I believe at last count, the Kings’ percentage odds of making the playoffs were just over 50%. I think Dean Lombardi should consider that to be his odds of being around after the end of this season and the playoffs. [...] For this Kings fan, the "patience", "building" and "the future is bright" mantras have little meaning. After nearly 6 years, I expect results.

To be fair, the last two seasons' playoff appearances qualify as results. But of course I get what Bobby is saying here. With the Richards trade, Kings made the leap from expecting to make the playoffs to expecting to win a round or two. Some people even promoted the Kings all the way to "cup contender." I voiced my nervousness at that absurd idea in my season preview. I pointed out that this particular core of Kings players has never done well with increased expectations. I get no pleasure from having been right about that.

The Kings have dropped two in a row and three of their last four. They can't score to save their lives. Is the sky falling? The Kings are on pace for 92 points. Before the last four games, they were on pace to make the playoffs. It's still reasonable to think that the Kings will finish about where they finished last year. Of course, it has always been the case that they have to not suck in order to do that. They still, this year as last year and the year before, have to continue to win 4 out of every 6 games, give or take. Everyone does. That's what's required.

The issue of patience isn't restricted to fans or ownership. In fact, at this time of year, the person whose patience is being tested more than anyone's, is Dean Lombardi. A handful of games before the trade deadline. The team can't score. Expectations are at an all-time high. Lombardi knows what he does now will very likely determine the fate of the team, and of course, his own fate, the fate of his Grand Scheme.

I keep thinking about this: just as AEG has to decide how patient it is willing to be with Lombardi, so Lombardi has to decide how patient he's willing to be with his players. In both cases, we can't really know what the parties are thinking. And I really don't know how much faith Lombardi has or will continue to have in Kopitar and Brown (to pick two names) or Johnson and Doughty (to pick two others) when the chips are down. And the chips are about to be "down". All of them. Not just for the season, but for the whole Lombardi era.

And what happens if the Kings snap out of their mini-funk over the next 5-7 games? The deadline may well arrive before it's clear whether the Kings can meet, without help (i.e. a trade) the world's lofty expectations of them. And then what does Lombardi do? Does he hold? He is conservative by nature...we think. On the other hand, as Darren Dreger pointed out elsewhere yesterday, Lombardi is unpredictable.

Now, I happen to think a big deal is forthcoming. But then, I also thought Penner would score 30-40 goals.

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Quisp could you post my draft preview and the game thread? I can log in to SB nation but it’s not letting me actually DO anything

Dinglebarnin' It JftC

by Niesy on Feb 11, 2012 10:01 AM PST reply actions  

besides comment apparently — it just hiccups violently at autotagger, publish post, everything else

Dinglebarnin' It JftC

by Niesy on Feb 11, 2012 10:02 AM PST up reply actions  

Enjoyed this

Nicely done. Blanked on Moulson. I think of him and all I see is red especially because I was so upset when Lombardi let him walk – he was for me what Loktionov is for you.

Regarding the article, I am still digesting some of the things you wrote but I like your perspective. May comment more later.

by Bobby Scribe on Feb 11, 2012 10:06 AM PST reply actions  

My question, in that case, will not be “should Lombardi be fired” but “who is the best available GM for the Kings”?

And the answer they will come up with is “Dean Lombardi”. Lombardi’s biggest problem was that the Kings improved earlier than he expected and maybe unrealistically raised the fans expectations. As you’ve said, the Kings haven’t held up well under the weight of expectation, such as when we were in first a few seasons ago around Christmas and then went on the big losing streak. We haven’t dealt well with the expectations coming into this season, but I don’t understand a lot of fans saying this was the year that Lombardi’s plan was supposed to come to fruition and we should be great right now. How is that right now when all the players Lombardi has drafted most likely haven’t had their top seasons yet? Just because we brought in Mike Richards means this is the be-all/end-all season for us (who hasn’t been right since his concussion)? People need to calm down and let the best GM we’ve had do his thing. I trust him to bring us to consistent greatness more than I would anyone else.

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 11, 2012 10:44 AM PST reply actions   1 recs

How about, because the team has been steadily improving for the last 3 years and most of the guys on the team are now mature to the point that they should have utilized their experience to learn how to win by now? Lombardi went and picked up Richards because he felt the team was at the cusp as it was and a player like Richards would put them over the top.

Lombardi will absolutely not be around next season if the Kings don’t make the playoffs. He probably won’t be there if they don’t win a playoff series. And he shouldn’t be. His stubborn attitude is holding the team back (and I imagine, rubbing other people around the league the wrong way) and a change in management is exactly what the team means.

by darthpuck on Feb 11, 2012 10:52 AM PST up reply actions  

I'm not as concerned as some people on here

It would be downright awful if the Kings didn’t make the playoffs this year. But, the core of this team will be together for another 6 years minimum, with so many prospects who are close to being able to jump in. I’m thinking of Halloway, Moller, Taffoli, and Kitsyn eventually. Trading one of those guys to bring in an established talent after the season could help solve the scoring issue.

I'm a dominant number four hitter for the El Cid Lounge's men's softball team

by hughestom1 on Feb 11, 2012 11:02 AM PST up reply actions  

6 years? If they go out with a puff they will have burned a year off of a lot of key contracts. And, it may take quite a bit of retooling (i.e. time) to pull out of the current pattern.

Just seems these players don’t jell well. Nolan and Richards may become a thing…wish they sat Penner a month ago.

Hope I wrong, but it so painful to watch at the current time.

Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?

by USHA#17 on Feb 11, 2012 8:49 PM PST up reply actions  

By "core"

I meant Kopitar, Richards, Doughty, Johnson, likely Quick. That’s a decent core considering all the prospects.

I'm a dominant number four hitter for the El Cid Lounge's men's softball team

by hughestom1 on Feb 12, 2012 8:36 PM PST up reply actions  

The thing that has always aggravated me about Lombardi…

It’s always seemed that he has talked about making the Kings a younger team that could grow together and learn how to win together. But he has NEVER committed to that philosophy. Doughty was the only top draft pick he ever put on the roster to start the season he was drafted. The Kings were the worst team in the league in 2007-08; would they really have been any worse (and would it have mattered?) if Thomas Hickey, the 4th overall pick in the 2007 draft who has yet to play an NHL game, had skated with them? Even if he wasn’t ready, why not give him a taste of the NHL for a few games to start that season?

The list is long: just look at the Kings’ prospect pool and Manchester roster.

It feels to me like he doesn’t actually trust young players and so he brings in veterans who make up for in experience what they lack in talent. Handzus. Nagy. Smyth (gave up a blue chip d-man in Quincey to get him too and then traded him for virtually nothing). Gagne. Halpern. Modin. etc etc

by darthpuck on Feb 11, 2012 10:47 AM PST reply actions  

All the young kids are playing together in Manchester and should be learning to win together down there. When they show they are ready (Voynov, Bernier AHL all-stars) he brings them up. As our team has shown, confidence can be a bitch to young players and there is no easier way to crush it than bringing them up too early.

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 11, 2012 10:54 AM PST up reply actions  

Are they learning to win by being one of the worst teams in the AHL?

That is a bullshit explanation. They shold be gaining NHL experience and learning what it takes to play against NHL competition, not having their confidence crushed by being told again and again that they aren’t good enough to be in the NHL.

by darthpuck on Feb 11, 2012 10:57 AM PST up reply actions  

The Monarchs are in 5th in the Eastern conference.

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 11, 2012 11:03 AM PST up reply actions   1 recs

The WORST. Fire Ron Hextall!

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Feb 11, 2012 2:28 PM PST up reply actions  

I don’t think so. If you get a team full of nothing but young guys you get the Edmonton Oilers. Losing in the NHL crushes your confidence more than winning in the AHL>

by Choralon3 on Feb 11, 2012 11:37 AM PST up reply actions  

My Fear

Lombardi must know that his job is on the line. My fear is that, knowing this, he will make a desperation move between now and the deadline that sends several prospects to another team for a veteran sniper in a last ditch effort to save the season and his job.

Would he sabotage the next GM and us fans who have been counting on those kids entering the Kings lineup and contributing by making a stupid trade that sets them back to where they were before he arrived?

Because my hope is that he gets fired and a scenario plays out like in Chicago a few years ago where the GM was let go and Bowman came in and put the finishing touches on what had been a solid base before they won the Cup. I do think the Kings have a lot of talent in the pipeline, but those kids have to be allowed to play. Next season. Not 3-4 years from now. They have to at least be given a look. And I think that a smarter GM would do that. Probably any other GM would have held onto Toffoli for at least the 9 games you can have a junior prospect on the team before deciding to send him back without burning a year of his ELC. Why the hell not? Especially for a team as weak on the wings as the Kings are (and were coming out of camp).

Anyway, I hope Lombardi doesn’t ship away a bunch of those kids in a desperate move because it won’t work most likely and even worse it will hurt the franchise in the long run.

by darthpuck on Feb 11, 2012 11:02 AM PST reply actions  

i agree with you and bobby...

when you say that the expectation by AEG/tim “would i leiweke to you?” haven’t been clearly defined..,

i’ve been saying since the start of the season everywhere i can about how upper management said that they wanted a “significant”: and measurable" improvement from last season…i think those were the exact two words being thrown around, but i could be wrong about that…anyhow, that has been the basic voiced feeling from those in charge of dl…

i would think that would mean getting out of the first round of the playoffs…but, at this point, who really knows…i believe that anything short of this would mean dl’s chances of returning next season and finishing up his contract become lessened…

variable from deepinsidethekings.com

by variables on Feb 11, 2012 11:10 AM PST reply actions  

When the CEO of a major corporation spends significant money and uses the company’s resources without the intended result for many years, what happens to that CEO?

He secret worries about his NFL ambitions?

Are Teemu Selanne and Melanie Griffith Twins?

by USHA#17 on Feb 11, 2012 8:52 PM PST up reply actions  

some slight adjustments

Someone above used the word ‘stubborn’ to describe Lombardi. I posted on Bobby’s blog using the exact same word. Actually I said intractable and then stubborn.

Here is my point. No one – certainly not on this blog is saying don’t be defense conscious. But what I am saying is that in his drafting And his game philosophy he is so damned defense conscious that it hurts him and the team. It would be interesting (sort of thing Quisp does) to evaluate the first four rounds of all his drafts with the team. I don’t have the info or the patience to do it. But what comes to mind is : Bernier, Hickey, Deslaurier (who I think was lower?), Gibson, Teubert, Doughty, Campbell, Martinez, Forbort and Zatkoff. Then I remember Schenn, Simmonds, Toffoli, Moller and Clifford. Thats a Lot of D and Goal. Fine. Do it, but just be a little more ‘flexible’. You know, you can always switch the attention from one of the goalies or dmen to another forward. Thats two goalies or dmen to every forward.

To me it seems a tiny bit out of balance. And now he’s painted himself into a corner to say the least. The Kings certainly no matter what aren’t gonna pick high in the draft unless Dean (or another GM) can make a trade to move up. Personally I’d be more inclined to do that rather than trade one of the core players for another winger. But that’s just me.

This attitude also shows up in the conservative d at all costs approach that he wants his coaches to employ.

So as I see it, in the drafting, development and philosophy he is too rigid. Guess what? They’ve had problems scoring. Am I surprised? No. He’s getting back exactly what he’s put into it. Good d. Little o.

by number 6 on Feb 11, 2012 11:36 AM PST reply actions  

poor offensive play but solid D/goalie=currently in a play off spot (us St. Louis); poor defensive/goalie play but solid offense=no play off spot currently (Tampa, Edmonton)

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 11, 2012 11:55 AM PST up reply actions  

I agree at least to the extent that when you focus on d and g, it shouldn't be a surprise to be weaker on o

however, with the exception of Hickey (which is a case of Lombardi identifying a player he wanted and taking him even though no one would let DL trade down — and I admire that he did that, even though it’s obviously easy in retrospect to say he should have picked Logan Couture or whoever) I think Lombardi has almost always taken the best player available (best, in his opinion). And let’s not forget that he drafted Simmonds (off the board), Moller, Toffoli (traded up to get), Loktionov (7th round), and signed undrafted collegiate UFAs Moulson and Purcell. Not to mention the fact that Voynov, Martinez and Deslauriers are offensive defensemen.

The thing is, of those guys, only Moulson has hit his prime. And Moulson is much older than those other guys. Simmonds (possibly Lombardi’s best pick) was parlayed into Richards. It will be a few more (three or four) years before we can really say whether or not Lombardi drafted or developed well.

(Bernie Nicholls just said Nolan and King are playing with Mike Richter)

by Quisp on Feb 11, 2012 12:06 PM PST up reply actions  

I meant to say, I don't think the problem has been in development

it has everything to do with the fact that the Kings do not have an elite sniper/scorer. does every player have to be a “character” guy? can’t we tolerate one colossal asshole-primadonna who can score? wouldn’t dany heatley be a great addition at this point? and yes, i do wish he had dealt for cammalleri. at least, i think i do.

by Quisp on Feb 11, 2012 12:11 PM PST up reply actions  

however, with the exception of Hickey (which is a case of Lombardi identifying a player he wanted and taking him even though no one would let DL trade down — and I admire that he did that, even though it’s obviously easy in retrospect to say he should have picked Logan Couture or whoever) I think Lombardi has almost always taken the best player available (best, in his opinion).

But that’s just the thing. I think everyone kinda knows that when you’re drafting you don’t just blindly take the best player available. You take the player you need. So if you’re heavy on defense and the three next best players available are all defensemen, maybe you skip those guys and take that next forward who’s on the board because that’s what your team needs (with the obvious proviso that if that top defenseman available is going to be such an improvement over what you have that you can’t pass him up; neither Teubert not Forbort met that definition).

by darthpuck on Feb 11, 2012 12:19 PM PST up reply actions  

I think everyone kinda knows that when you’re drafting you don’t just blindly take the best player available. You take the player you need

I think everyone kinda knows exactly the opposite of that

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 11, 2012 12:21 PM PST up reply actions  

your own needs are the tie-breaker, usually

in other words, if you’re choosing between two prospects, all else being equal, fill your needs.

the other, obvious, reason you don’t draft to fill holes is that when you’re drafting you’re filling holes five years in the future.

by Quisp on Feb 11, 2012 12:34 PM PST up reply actions  

Exactly. And the Kings’ need has not been more defensemen for a while now.

When dealing with mid-first round picks everything is pretty much equal because there is no way to know which of those players is going to pan out and which are going to bust (with the top handful I tihnk you have a pretty good idea that most are going to be good NHL players, if not all great).

So if you see that you’re stocked at defense and you’re drafting 15th perhaps when you have a very deep pool of defensive prospects you go ahead and draft the next forward on the board instead of just automatically saying, well X Defenseman is the bets player available so I have to take him.

by darthpuck on Feb 11, 2012 12:50 PM PST up reply actions  

Indeed, since the best available player can become a tradable asset down the line even if you don’t need him at any given time. Teubert became Penner last season… which didn’t work out terribly well, but it seemed like a decent idea at the time — and there were folks around here advocating strongly for Penner early last season. As it was with Teubert last season, so it may be with Hickey or Martinez this season. It’s easier to trade for what you lack when you have a surplus of something.

"I see my life flashing before my eyes... and it's boring!." — Gumball Watterson

by DougX on Feb 11, 2012 11:36 PM PST up reply actions  

Yeah, not in the first round when the talent drop-off can be huge. In later rounds, where all the obvious very talented players have already been taken, sure. This isn’t football.

by BobKnob on Feb 11, 2012 1:29 PM PST up reply actions  

"My question, in that case, will not be 'should Lombardi be fired' but 'who is the best available GM for the Kings'?"

I used this thought over at S&S on another thread, but it fits here as well; What if “those two guys over at AEG” decide to let Lombardi go and suddenly they notice a guy named Sutter, who is already in the organization and has GM experience?

Now that is scary, and not entirely ridiculous.

End Corporate Personhood.

by Player-X on Feb 11, 2012 3:40 PM PST reply actions  

Hopefully, that weird hiring of Jeremy Roenick as video jock wasn't typical of his judgment...

Since it’s Roenick night…was Luc surprised when there was a negative reaction to Roenick after his paid vacation stint in L.A.? I kinda thought that made the Kings organization look really bad, the move was totally tone-deaf.
I think if AEG hires either one of Luc or Sutter as GM, there would have to be alcohol involved. It certainly would make me want some. I can’t even decide which would be worse.

End Corporate Personhood.

by Player-X on Feb 12, 2012 10:11 PM PST up reply actions  

Whoever promoted this team to a Cup contender, uh yeah, I want some of that weed

I did expect to win a round in the playoffs though, which could still happen… Of course, it’s probably likelier we get swept out of the first round…

This is like a mirror of the Sharks ‘02-’03 season…

Alcohol may be man's worst enemy, but the bible says love your enemy.
"So what if we're boring?" says Tim Duncan before taking a nap.

by Paul Udani on Feb 11, 2012 11:34 PM PST reply actions  

Good point, but eerie

Between games 53 through 59 of the Sharks ‘02-’03 season, they went on a seven game road trip. Their record on that trip: 1-6.

Now, they were out of it by that point, but still…

The Kings are currently on a six game road trip during games 52 through 57, and have gone 1-3-1. I’m not sure I want to watch the Stars game tomorrow…

by Flubber McGee on Feb 12, 2012 12:45 AM PST up reply actions  

Very true, thankfully

Though, I can’t help but wonder whatever happened to that Ron Wilson character. Something about Toronto? It sounds made up to me.

by Flubber McGee on Feb 13, 2012 12:10 AM PST up reply actions  

All I’m saying is that the team is floundering and the responsibility needs to be held with the guy up top. Our free agent signings aren’t working out, we’re too top-heavy, and the only draft pick contributing recently was the one we drafted really high. The GM needs to be held accountable for that, especially if this losing continues.

Anyway, that’s why I think we should fire Stan Bowman. I’ll take your opinions off air.

The West Coast is the Best Coast.

by RudyKelly on Feb 12, 2012 8:34 AM PST reply actions  

Fire Quenville!

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 12, 2012 8:41 AM PST up reply actions  

well that one might not be a bad idea, actually

For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.

by Nut on Feb 12, 2012 11:35 AM PST up reply actions  

If the Kings don’t make the playoffs this year (barring any significant injuries, like Kopitar last year), then yes DL probably does deserve to be fired. I don’t know about deserving to be fired if they lose in the first round however. Maybe if they get dominated (sweep) but if they are competitive, especially in a match-up against say Detroit or Vancouver, I wouldn’t be too quick to pull the trigger. Especially with a new CBA coming up, I would think an experienced GM would be the best option, regardless of how the team fares in the playoffs.

by sstephen17 on Feb 13, 2012 10:42 AM PST reply actions  

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