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Here's a chart of 99 defensemen, culled from one (or more) of three lists: (1) the highest-scoring defensemen all-time (500 career points or more); (2) the currently highest-paid defensemen in terms of cap-hit; (3) the top-scoring defensemen over the last couple of seasons. I thought I would show that Doughty, before the age of 22, has done what few before him have done. That was simple enough: Doughty has scored 126 points in those three seasons, a feat which has been topped by only thirteen other players.
- The "H" column has an asterisk in it if the player happens to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame.
- The "N" column gives the number of Norris trophies won.
- Players whose names are in red are both Hall-of-Famers and Norris winners.
- Players whose names are in orange are merely in the Hall of Fame. :(
- Players whose names are in green are Norris winners who aren't in the Hall, although some of them will certainly be in the Hall soon (Lidstrom, Chelios).
- Names in purple are either active players or recently retired (purple being the default color for links to an SBN player page). [oops, the SBN tagger is having technical difficulties; purple links aren't happening]
- The columns 18, 19, 20 and 21 reflect the number of points earned by that player at that age. 18-21 indicates the total for that period. R1 shows the rank at 18-21. RC shows the rank of the player's career totals with respect to the other players on this list.
H | N | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 18-21 | R1 | RC | |
Phil Housley | 66 | 77 | 69 | 62 | 274 | 1 | 5 | ||
Bobby Orr | * | 8 | 41 | 31 | 64 | 120 | 256 | 2 | 12 |
Paul Coffey | * | 3 | 32 | 89 | 96 | 217 | 3 | 2 | |
Larry Murphy | * | 76 | 66 | 62 | 204 | 4 | 6 | ||
Scott Stevens | * | 25 | 45 | 65 | 53 | 188 | 5 | 13 | |
Ray Bourque | * | 5 | 65 | 56 | 66 | 187 | 6 | 1 | |
Dave Babych | 44 | 68 | 74 | 186 | 7 | 25 | |||
Paul Reinhart | 47 | 67 | 61 | 175 | 8 | 46 | |||
Doug Bodger | 31 | 37 | 49 | 45 | 162 | 9 | 51 | ||
Brian Leetch | * | 2 | 14 | 71 | 56 | 141 | 10 | 9 | |
Denis Potvin | * | 3 | 54 | 76 | 130 | 11 | 8 | ||
Roman Hamrlik | 21 | 21 | 23 | 65 | 130 | 11 | 34 | ||
Glen Wesley | 37 | 54 | 36 | 127 | 13 | 48 | |||
Drew Doughty | 27 | 59 | 40 | 126 | 14 | 90 | |||
Al MacInnis | * | 1 | 0 | 4 | 45 | 66 | 115 | 15 | 4 |
Scott Niedermayer | 1 | 1 | 40 | 46 | 19 | 106 | 16 | 24 | |
Harry Howell | * | 1 | 46 | 58 | 104 | 17 | 3 | ||
Alexei Zhitnik | 48 | 52 | 100 | 18 | 60 | ||||
Dion Phaneuf | 49 | 50 | 99 | 19 | 70 | ||||
George Ramage | 28 | 62 | 90 | 20 | 44 | ||||
Sandis Ozolinsh | 23 | 64 | 87 | 21 | 44 | ||||
Jeff Brown | 5 | 29 | 52 | 86 | 22 | 39 | |||
Kevin Hatcher | 1 | 19 | 24 | 41 | 85 | 23 | 29 | ||
Tyler Myers | 48 | 37 | 85 | 23 | 94 | ||||
Dave Ellett | 38 | 46 | 84 | 25 | 42 | ||||
Wade Redden | 30 | 22 | 29 | 81 | 26 | 63 | |||
Ron Greshner | 45 | 27 | 72 | 27 | 36 | ||||
Erik Karlsson | 26 | 45 | 71 | 28 | 96 | ||||
Daryl Sydor | 6 | 29 | 35 | 70 | 29 | 56 | |||
Chris Pronger | 1 | 30 | 14 | 25 | 69 | 30 | 27 | ||
Gary Suter | 68 | 68 | 31 | 15 | |||||
Ed Jovanovski | 21 | 23 | 23 | 67 | 32 | 59 | |||
Brad Park | * | 26 | 37 | 63 | 33 | 14 | |||
Calle Johansson | 42 | 21 | 63 | 33 | 49 | ||||
Tomas Kaberle | 22 | 40 | 62 | 35 | 50 | ||||
Reed Larson | 1 | 60 | 61 | 36 | 28 | ||||
Nicklas Lidstrom | 7 | 60 | 60 | 37 | 7 | ||||
Doug Wilson | 1 | 34 | 26 | 60 | 37 | 16 | |||
Teppo Numminen | 15 | 43 | 58 | 39 | 33 | ||||
Brent Seabrook | 32 | 24 | 56 | 40 | 80 | ||||
Eric Desjardins | 14 | 16 | 25 | 55 | 41 | 41 | |||
Kris Letang | 2 | 17 | 33 | 52 | 42 | 89 | |||
Mathieu Schneider | 0 | 21 | 30 | 51 | 43 | 18 | |||
Fredrik Olausson | 36 | 15 | 51 | 43 | 40 | ||||
Brian McCabe | 23 | 28 | 51 | 43 | 51 | ||||
Shea Weber | 10 | 40 | 50 | 46 | 79 | ||||
Sergei Gonchar | 7 | 41 | 48 | 47 | 26 | ||||
Brent Burns | 6 | 16 | 25 | 47 | 48 | 83 | |||
Bill Gadsby | 18 | 16 | 13 | 47 | 48 | 42 | |||
Rob Blake | 1 | 0 | 46 | 46 | 50 | 20 | |||
Alex Pietrangelo | 1 | 2 | 43 | 46 | 53 | 97 | |||
James Patrick | 8 | 36 | 44 | 52 | 32 | ||||
P.K. Subban | 2 | 38 | 40 | 53 | 99 | ||||
Steve Duchesne | 38 | 38 | 54 | 22 | |||||
Garry Galley | 38 | 38 | 54 | 37 | |||||
Red Kelly | * | 1 | 20 | 16 | 36 | 56 | 17 | ||
Jay Bouwmeester | 16 | 20 | 36 | 56 | 73 | ||||
Joni Pitkanen | 27 | 27 | 58 | 73 | |||||
Dan Hamhuis | 26 | 26 | 59 | 82 | |||||
Kevin Shattenkirk | 26 | 26 | 59 | 98 | |||||
Jack Johnson | 0 | 11 | 11 | 22 | 61 | 93 | |||
Michal Rozsival | 21 | 21 | 62 | 75 | |||||
Randy Carlyle | 1 | 5 | 13 | 18 | 63 | 31 | |||
Tim Horton | 0 | 16 | 16 | 64 | 53 | ||||
Mike Green | 3 | 12 | 15 | 65 | 76 | ||||
Keith Yandle | 2 | 12 | 14 | 66 | 88 | ||||
Christian Ehrhoff | 12 | 12 | 67 | 78 | |||||
Zdeno Chara | 1 | 1 | 8 | 9 | 68 | 65 | |||
Rod Langway | * | 2 | 7 | 7 | 69 | 67 | |||
James Wisniewski | 7 | 7 | 69 | 86 | |||||
Larry Robinson | * | 1 | 6 | 6 | 71 | 10 | |||
Mike Komisarek | 1 | 4 | 5 | 72 | 95 | ||||
Brian Campbell | 5 | 0 | 5 | 72 | 68 | ||||
Robert Murray | 3 | 3 | 74 | 55 | |||||
Carol Vadnais | 3 | 3 | 74 | 38 | |||||
Chris Chelios | 3 | 2 | 2 | 76 | 11 | ||||
Jacques Laperriere | * | 1 | 2 | 2 | 76 | 30 | |||
Bruce Driver | 2 | 2 | 76 | 58 | |||||
Borje Salming | * | 19 | |||||||
Sergei Zubov | 21 | ||||||||
Mark Howe | 23 | ||||||||
Guy Lapointe | 35 | ||||||||
Doug Harvey | * | 7 | 47 | ||||||
Brian Rafalski | 54 | ||||||||
Pierre Pilote | * | 3 | 57 | ||||||
Jyrki Lumme | 61 | ||||||||
Dan Boyle | 62 | ||||||||
Lubomir Visnovsky | 64 | ||||||||
Andrei Markov | 66 | ||||||||
John-Michael Liles | 69 | ||||||||
Tom Johnson | * | 1 | 71 | ||||||
Joe Corvo | 72 | ||||||||
Duncan Keith | 1 | 77 | |||||||
Paul Martin | 81 | ||||||||
Tobias Enstrom | 84 | ||||||||
Ron Hainsey | 85 | ||||||||
Kevin Bieksa | 87 | ||||||||
Mark Giordano | 91 | ||||||||
Alex Goligoski | 92 |
- Only 13 defensemen in history have scored more points at 18-21 than Doughty. (There's a small chance I missed a name or two, since I don't have the ability -- without doing it manually -- to isolate individual ages over the entire history of the league. My assumption is that by isolating all the Hall of Famers, all the Norris winners and everyone with over 500 career points, I would catch 99% of the child prodigies.)
- Of those 13, seven are in the Hall of Fame.
- Five of the 13 are Norris winners, and those five have won it a total of 21 times. That's one-third of all the Norris trophies ever awarded.
- Orr, Bourque, Stevens, Murphy, Leetch, Potvin, Housley and Coffey (8 of the 13) are elite players, generational talents. They're some of the best players ever.
- However, the other five names are a bit of a problem. Because Babych, Reinhart, Bodger, Hamrlik and Wesley -- all very good players with fine careers -- would see their career numbers drop off from their 18-21 pace, as the RC column shows. None of them falls off the map, but I'm pretty sure if Doughty turns out to be Doug Bodger 2.0, that will be considered a disappointment.
TOT
18-21
R1
RC
% TOT
22+
Ray Bourque
1579
187
6
1
11.84%
1392
Paul Coffey
1531
217
3
2
14.17%
1314
Harry Howell
1298
104
17
3
8.01%
1194
Al MacInnis
1274
115
15
4
9.03%
1159
Larry Murphy
1216
204
4
6
16.78%
1012
Phil Housley
1232
274
1
5
22.24%
958
Denis Potvin
1052
130
11
8
12.36%
922
Brian Leetch
1028
141
10
9
13.72%
887
Scott Stevens
908
188
5
13
20.70%
720
Bobby Orr
915
256
2
12
27.98%
659
Scott Niedermayer
740
106
16
24
14.32%
634
Kevin Hatcher
677
85
23
29
12.56%
592
Dave Babych
723
186
7
25
25.73%
537
Jeff Brown
584
86
22
39
14.73%
498
Roman Hamrlik
624
130
11
34
20.83%
494
Dave Ellett
568
84
25
42
14.79%
484
Sandis Ozolinsh
564
87
21
44
15.43%
477
George Ramage
564
90
20
44
15.96%
474
Glen Wesley
537
127
13
48
23.65%
410
Paul Reinhart
559
175
8
46
31.31%
384
Alexei Zhitnik
471
100
18
60
21.23%
371
Wade Redden
450
81
26
63
18.00%
369
Doug Bodger
528
162
9
51
30.68%
366
- There is an obvious divide in the list: Niedermayer and up representing the franchise-type players; Hatcher and down representing the very good but not elite. This, of course, begs the original question, or I guess rephrases it:
- Is Drew Doughty closer to Bourque, Murphy, Potvin and Leetch...or Hamrlik, Reinhart, Wesley and Bodger?
- I decided to look at the next block of four years, ages 22-25, to see if it was a better predictor of career numbers. Obviously, Doughty (and many others out of the 99 we started with) don't have data here because they're not 22 yet (or are, just barely). I have once again focused only on retired (or nearly retired) players.
TOT
22-25
26+
R22-25
RC
Bobby Orr
915
479
249
1
12
Paul Coffey
1531
452
975
2
2
Denis Potvin
1052
373
462
3
8
Ray Bourque
1579
332
1132
4
1
Jacques Laperriere
674
327
287
5
30
Brian Leetch
1028
305
519
6
9
Al MacInnis
1274
301
971
7
4
Harry Howell
1298
296
996
8
3
Phil Housley
1232
284
674
9
5
Gary Suter
845
278
531
10
15
Doug Wilson
827
266
561
11
16
Steve Duchesne
752
254
447
12
22
Brad Park
896
252
598
13
14
Reed Larson
685
251
434
14
28
Larry Murphy
1216
250
966
15
6
Scott Stevens
908
241
607
16
13
Randy Carlyle
647
241
338
16
31
Jeff Brown
584
240
344
18
39
Ron Greshner
610
230
342
19
36
Dave Babych
723
229
456
20
25
Sergei Zubov
771
222
491
22
21
Kevin Hatcher
677
222
455
22
29
Fredrik Olausson
581
220
314
24
40
Larry Robinson
958
212
746
25
10
Borje Salming
787
211
558
26
19
James Patrick
639
207
388
27
32
Dave Ellett
568
204
313
28
42
Chris Chelios
948
203
684
29
11
Guy Lapointe
622
200
367
30
35
Sandis Ozolinsh
564
198
281
31
44
Paul Reinhart
559
198
358
31
46
Calle Johansson
535
192
341
33
49
George Ramage
564
191
371
34
44
Nicklas Lidstrom
1108
190
909
35
7
Red Kelly
823
187
585
36
17
Glen Wesley
537
180
285
37
48
Doug Bodger
528
174
168
39
51
Scott Niedermayer
740
171
507
40
24
Rob Blake
777
158
549
46
20
Mathieu Schneider
794
157
547
48
18
Robert Murray
514
153
298
49
55
Rod Langway
329
152
177
50
67
Eric Desjardins
575
147
428
53
41
Mark Howe
742
145
597
54
23
Bruce Driver
486
139
266
55
58
Daryl Sydor
507
137
208
56
56
Sergei Gonchar
711
136
575
57
26
Teppo Numminen
637
132
330
60
33
Alexei Zhitnik
471
130
320
61
60
Carol Vadnais
587
114
466
65
38
Jyrki Lumme
468
110
358
67
61
Garry Galley
599
108
491
68
37
Bill Gadsby
568
89
479
72
42
Tim Horton
518
70
421
80
53
Doug Harvey
540
48
466
84
47
Tom Johnson
264
46
211
86
71
Pierre Pilote
498
25
374
90
57
- The thing that leaps out at me is that looking at the numbers for defensemen at this age is a much better predictor of career numbers than looking at numbers at age 18-21.
- R22-25 is the player's rank (out of the 99 players I selected) in terms of their total points between ages 22 and 25. RC is their career rank, among the same 99 players. If you compare the top 15 in both lists: (22-25) the nine players whose rank fell in terms of career totals averaged a drop of 7 spots; (18-21) the nine players whose rank fell in terms of career totals dropped an average of 20 spots.
- Over-all, the 22-25 top 15 dropped an average of 3.6 spots, while the 18-21 top 15 dropped an average of 11.4 spots.
- Interestingly, 7:20 reduces to 1:2.86 and 3.6:11.4 reduces to 1:3.16...both very close to 1:3.
- In other words, a randomly selected player in the top 15 in the 18-21 column is likely to fall nearly three times are far down the career list than a randomly selected player in the top 15 at 22-25.
- And if Doughty were in the top 15 of the 22-25 group in four years, instead of worrying he's going to turn into Hamrlik, Reinhart, Wesley or Bodger, we would be worrying he was going to turn into Steve Duchesne or Reed Larson.
- So, from the 22-25 list, not only are there fewer bad outcomes, but the bad outcomes themselves are upgrades over the bad outcomes of the previous list.
- Which tells me that, while what Doughty has accomplished so far is certainly something special, something only 13 players in the history of the league have managed to do, it's not a reliable predictor of future eliteness, greatness, Hall-of-Fameness or whatever other attribute one might expect in return or $7MM a year.
- That would be an easier argument to make if Anze Kopitar weren't getting $6.8MM, arguably having accomplished less.