The history of (future) Hall of Fame and Norris defensemen before age 22
Here's a chart of 99 defensemen, culled from one (or more) of three lists: (1) the highest-scoring defensemen all-time (500 career points or more); (2) the currently highest-paid defensemen in terms of cap-hit; (3) the top-scoring defensemen over the last couple of seasons. I thought I would show that Doughty, before the age of 22, has done what few before him have done. That was simple enough: Doughty has scored 126 points in those three seasons, a feat which has been topped by only thirteen other players.
- The "H" column has an asterisk in it if the player happens to be in the Hockey Hall of Fame.
- The "N" column gives the number of Norris trophies won.
- Players whose names are in red are both Hall-of-Famers and Norris winners.
- Players whose names are in orange are merely in the Hall of Fame. :(
- Players whose names are in green are Norris winners who aren't in the Hall, although some of them will certainly be in the Hall soon (Lidstrom, Chelios).
- Names in purple are either active players or recently retired (purple being the default color for links to an SBN player page). [oops, the SBN tagger is having technical difficulties; purple links aren't happening]
- The columns 18, 19, 20 and 21 reflect the number of points earned by that player at that age. 18-21 indicates the total for that period. R1 shows the rank at 18-21. RC shows the rank of the player's career totals with respect to the other players on this list.
H | N | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 18-21 | R1 | RC | |
Phil Housley | 66 | 77 | 69 | 62 | 274 | 1 | 5 | ||
Bobby Orr | * | 8 | 41 | 31 | 64 | 120 | 256 | 2 | 12 |
Paul Coffey | * | 3 | 32 | 89 | 96 | 217 | 3 | 2 | |
Larry Murphy | * | 76 | 66 | 62 | 204 | 4 | 6 | ||
Scott Stevens | * | 25 | 45 | 65 | 53 | 188 | 5 | 13 | |
Ray Bourque | * | 5 | 65 | 56 | 66 | 187 | 6 | 1 | |
Dave Babych | 44 | 68 | 74 | 186 | 7 | 25 | |||
Paul Reinhart | 47 | 67 | 61 | 175 | 8 | 46 | |||
Doug Bodger | 31 | 37 | 49 | 45 | 162 | 9 | 51 | ||
Brian Leetch | * | 2 | 14 | 71 | 56 | 141 | 10 | 9 | |
Denis Potvin | * | 3 | 54 | 76 | 130 | 11 | 8 | ||
Roman Hamrlik | 21 | 21 | 23 | 65 | 130 | 11 | 34 | ||
Glen Wesley | 37 | 54 | 36 | 127 | 13 | 48 | |||
Drew Doughty | 27 | 59 | 40 | 126 | 14 | 90 | |||
Al MacInnis | * | 1 | 0 | 4 | 45 | 66 | 115 | 15 | 4 |
Scott Niedermayer | 1 | 1 | 40 | 46 | 19 | 106 | 16 | 24 | |
Harry Howell | * | 1 | 46 | 58 | 104 | 17 | 3 | ||
Alexei Zhitnik | 48 | 52 | 100 | 18 | 60 | ||||
Dion Phaneuf | 49 | 50 | 99 | 19 | 70 | ||||
George Ramage | 28 | 62 | 90 | 20 | 44 | ||||
Sandis Ozolinsh | 23 | 64 | 87 | 21 | 44 | ||||
Jeff Brown | 5 | 29 | 52 | 86 | 22 | 39 | |||
Kevin Hatcher | 1 | 19 | 24 | 41 | 85 | 23 | 29 | ||
Tyler Myers | 48 | 37 | 85 | 23 | 94 | ||||
Dave Ellett | 38 | 46 | 84 | 25 | 42 | ||||
Wade Redden | 30 | 22 | 29 | 81 | 26 | 63 | |||
Ron Greshner | 45 | 27 | 72 | 27 | 36 | ||||
Erik Karlsson | 26 | 45 | 71 | 28 | 96 | ||||
Daryl Sydor | 6 | 29 | 35 | 70 | 29 | 56 | |||
Chris Pronger | 1 | 30 | 14 | 25 | 69 | 30 | 27 | ||
Gary Suter | 68 | 68 | 31 | 15 | |||||
Ed Jovanovski | 21 | 23 | 23 | 67 | 32 | 59 | |||
Brad Park | * | 26 | 37 | 63 | 33 | 14 | |||
Calle Johansson | 42 | 21 | 63 | 33 | 49 | ||||
Tomas Kaberle | 22 | 40 | 62 | 35 | 50 | ||||
Reed Larson | 1 | 60 | 61 | 36 | 28 | ||||
Nicklas Lidstrom | 7 | 60 | 60 | 37 | 7 | ||||
Doug Wilson | 1 | 34 | 26 | 60 | 37 | 16 | |||
Teppo Numminen | 15 | 43 | 58 | 39 | 33 | ||||
Brent Seabrook | 32 | 24 | 56 | 40 | 80 | ||||
Eric Desjardins | 14 | 16 | 25 | 55 | 41 | 41 | |||
Kris Letang | 2 | 17 | 33 | 52 | 42 | 89 | |||
Mathieu Schneider | 0 | 21 | 30 | 51 | 43 | 18 | |||
Fredrik Olausson | 36 | 15 | 51 | 43 | 40 | ||||
Brian McCabe | 23 | 28 | 51 | 43 | 51 | ||||
Shea Weber | 10 | 40 | 50 | 46 | 79 | ||||
Sergei Gonchar | 7 | 41 | 48 | 47 | 26 | ||||
Brent Burns | 6 | 16 | 25 | 47 | 48 | 83 | |||
Bill Gadsby | 18 | 16 | 13 | 47 | 48 | 42 | |||
Rob Blake | 1 | 0 | 46 | 46 | 50 | 20 | |||
Alex Pietrangelo | 1 | 2 | 43 | 46 | 53 | 97 | |||
James Patrick | 8 | 36 | 44 | 52 | 32 | ||||
P.K. Subban | 2 | 38 | 40 | 53 | 99 | ||||
Steve Duchesne | 38 | 38 | 54 | 22 | |||||
Garry Galley | 38 | 38 | 54 | 37 | |||||
Red Kelly | * | 1 | 20 | 16 | 36 | 56 | 17 | ||
Jay Bouwmeester | 16 | 20 | 36 | 56 | 73 | ||||
Joni Pitkanen | 27 | 27 | 58 | 73 | |||||
Dan Hamhuis | 26 | 26 | 59 | 82 | |||||
Kevin Shattenkirk | 26 | 26 | 59 | 98 | |||||
Jack Johnson | 0 | 11 | 11 | 22 | 61 | 93 | |||
Michal Rozsival | 21 | 21 | 62 | 75 | |||||
Randy Carlyle | 1 | 5 | 13 | 18 | 63 | 31 | |||
Tim Horton | 0 | 16 | 16 | 64 | 53 | ||||
Mike Green | 3 | 12 | 15 | 65 | 76 | ||||
Keith Yandle | 2 | 12 | 14 | 66 | 88 | ||||
Christian Ehrhoff | 12 | 12 | 67 | 78 | |||||
Zdeno Chara | 1 | 1 | 8 | 9 | 68 | 65 | |||
Rod Langway | * | 2 | 7 | 7 | 69 | 67 | |||
James Wisniewski | 7 | 7 | 69 | 86 | |||||
Larry Robinson | * | 1 | 6 | 6 | 71 | 10 | |||
Mike Komisarek | 1 | 4 | 5 | 72 | 95 | ||||
Brian Campbell | 5 | 0 | 5 | 72 | 68 | ||||
Robert Murray | 3 | 3 | 74 | 55 | |||||
Carol Vadnais | 3 | 3 | 74 | 38 | |||||
Chris Chelios | 3 | 2 | 2 | 76 | 11 | ||||
Jacques Laperriere | * | 1 | 2 | 2 | 76 | 30 | |||
Bruce Driver | 2 | 2 | 76 | 58 | |||||
Borje Salming | * | 19 | |||||||
Sergei Zubov | 21 | ||||||||
Mark Howe | 23 | ||||||||
Guy Lapointe | 35 | ||||||||
Doug Harvey | * | 7 | 47 | ||||||
Brian Rafalski | 54 | ||||||||
Pierre Pilote | * | 3 | 57 | ||||||
Jyrki Lumme | 61 | ||||||||
Dan Boyle | 62 | ||||||||
Lubomir Visnovsky | 64 | ||||||||
Andrei Markov | 66 | ||||||||
John-Michael Liles | 69 | ||||||||
Tom Johnson | * | 1 | 71 | ||||||
Joe Corvo | 72 | ||||||||
Duncan Keith | 1 | 77 | |||||||
Paul Martin | 81 | ||||||||
Tobias Enstrom | 84 | ||||||||
Ron Hainsey | 85 | ||||||||
Kevin Bieksa | 87 | ||||||||
Mark Giordano | 91 | ||||||||
Alex Goligoski | 92 |
- Only 13 defensemen in history have scored more points at 18-21 than Doughty. (There's a small chance I missed a name or two, since I don't have the ability -- without doing it manually -- to isolate individual ages over the entire history of the league. My assumption is that by isolating all the Hall of Famers, all the Norris winners and everyone with over 500 career points, I would catch 99% of the child prodigies.)
- Of those 13, seven are in the Hall of Fame.
- Five of the 13 are Norris winners, and those five have won it a total of 21 times. That's one-third of all the Norris trophies ever awarded.
- Orr, Bourque, Stevens, Murphy, Leetch, Potvin, Housley and Coffey (8 of the 13) are elite players, generational talents. They're some of the best players ever.
- However, the other five names are a bit of a problem. Because Babych, Reinhart, Bodger, Hamrlik and Wesley -- all very good players with fine careers -- would see their career numbers drop off from their 18-21 pace, as the RC column shows. None of them falls off the map, but I'm pretty sure if Doughty turns out to be Doug Bodger 2.0, that will be considered a disappointment.
TOT 18-21 R1 RC % TOT 22+ Ray Bourque 1579 187 6 1 11.84% 1392 Paul Coffey 1531 217 3 2 14.17% 1314 Harry Howell 1298 104 17 3 8.01% 1194 Al MacInnis 1274 115 15 4 9.03% 1159 Larry Murphy 1216 204 4 6 16.78% 1012 Phil Housley 1232 274 1 5 22.24% 958 Denis Potvin 1052 130 11 8 12.36% 922 Brian Leetch 1028 141 10 9 13.72% 887 Scott Stevens 908 188 5 13 20.70% 720 Bobby Orr 915 256 2 12 27.98% 659 Scott Niedermayer 740 106 16 24 14.32% 634 Kevin Hatcher 677 85 23 29 12.56% 592 Dave Babych 723 186 7 25 25.73% 537 Jeff Brown 584 86 22 39 14.73% 498 Roman Hamrlik 624 130 11 34 20.83% 494 Dave Ellett 568 84 25 42 14.79% 484 Sandis Ozolinsh 564 87 21 44 15.43% 477 George Ramage 564 90 20 44 15.96% 474 Glen Wesley 537 127 13 48 23.65% 410 Paul Reinhart 559 175 8 46 31.31% 384 Alexei Zhitnik 471 100 18 60 21.23% 371 Wade Redden 450 81 26 63 18.00% 369 Doug Bodger 528 162 9 51 30.68% 366
- There is an obvious divide in the list: Niedermayer and up representing the franchise-type players; Hatcher and down representing the very good but not elite. This, of course, begs the original question, or I guess rephrases it:
- Is Drew Doughty closer to Bourque, Murphy, Potvin and Leetch...or Hamrlik, Reinhart, Wesley and Bodger?
- I decided to look at the next block of four years, ages 22-25, to see if it was a better predictor of career numbers. Obviously, Doughty (and many others out of the 99 we started with) don't have data here because they're not 22 yet (or are, just barely). I have once again focused only on retired (or nearly retired) players.
TOT 22-25 26+ R22-25 RC Bobby Orr 915 479 249 1 12 Paul Coffey 1531 452 975 2 2 Denis Potvin 1052 373 462 3 8 Ray Bourque 1579 332 1132 4 1 Jacques Laperriere 674 327 287 5 30 Brian Leetch 1028 305 519 6 9 Al MacInnis 1274 301 971 7 4 Harry Howell 1298 296 996 8 3 Phil Housley 1232 284 674 9 5 Gary Suter 845 278 531 10 15 Doug Wilson 827 266 561 11 16 Steve Duchesne 752 254 447 12 22 Brad Park 896 252 598 13 14 Reed Larson 685 251 434 14 28 Larry Murphy 1216 250 966 15 6 Scott Stevens 908 241 607 16 13 Randy Carlyle 647 241 338 16 31 Jeff Brown 584 240 344 18 39 Ron Greshner 610 230 342 19 36 Dave Babych 723 229 456 20 25 Sergei Zubov 771 222 491 22 21 Kevin Hatcher 677 222 455 22 29 Fredrik Olausson 581 220 314 24 40 Larry Robinson 958 212 746 25 10 Borje Salming 787 211 558 26 19 James Patrick 639 207 388 27 32 Dave Ellett 568 204 313 28 42 Chris Chelios 948 203 684 29 11 Guy Lapointe 622 200 367 30 35 Sandis Ozolinsh 564 198 281 31 44 Paul Reinhart 559 198 358 31 46 Calle Johansson 535 192 341 33 49 George Ramage 564 191 371 34 44 Nicklas Lidstrom 1108 190 909 35 7 Red Kelly 823 187 585 36 17 Glen Wesley 537 180 285 37 48 Doug Bodger 528 174 168 39 51 Scott Niedermayer 740 171 507 40 24 Rob Blake 777 158 549 46 20 Mathieu Schneider 794 157 547 48 18 Robert Murray 514 153 298 49 55 Rod Langway 329 152 177 50 67 Eric Desjardins 575 147 428 53 41 Mark Howe 742 145 597 54 23 Bruce Driver 486 139 266 55 58 Daryl Sydor 507 137 208 56 56 Sergei Gonchar 711 136 575 57 26 Teppo Numminen 637 132 330 60 33 Alexei Zhitnik 471 130 320 61 60 Carol Vadnais 587 114 466 65 38 Jyrki Lumme 468 110 358 67 61 Garry Galley 599 108 491 68 37 Bill Gadsby 568 89 479 72 42 Tim Horton 518 70 421 80 53 Doug Harvey 540 48 466 84 47 Tom Johnson 264 46 211 86 71 Pierre Pilote 498 25 374 90 57
- The thing that leaps out at me is that looking at the numbers for defensemen at this age is a much better predictor of career numbers than looking at numbers at age 18-21.
- R22-25 is the player's rank (out of the 99 players I selected) in terms of their total points between ages 22 and 25. RC is their career rank, among the same 99 players. If you compare the top 15 in both lists: (22-25) the nine players whose rank fell in terms of career totals averaged a drop of 7 spots; (18-21) the nine players whose rank fell in terms of career totals dropped an average of 20 spots.
- Over-all, the 22-25 top 15 dropped an average of 3.6 spots, while the 18-21 top 15 dropped an average of 11.4 spots.
- Interestingly, 7:20 reduces to 1:2.86 and 3.6:11.4 reduces to 1:3.16...both very close to 1:3.
- In other words, a randomly selected player in the top 15 in the 18-21 column is likely to fall nearly three times are far down the career list than a randomly selected player in the top 15 at 22-25.
- And if Doughty were in the top 15 of the 22-25 group in four years, instead of worrying he's going to turn into Hamrlik, Reinhart, Wesley or Bodger, we would be worrying he was going to turn into Steve Duchesne or Reed Larson.
- So, from the 22-25 list, not only are there fewer bad outcomes, but the bad outcomes themselves are upgrades over the bad outcomes of the previous list.
- Which tells me that, while what Doughty has accomplished so far is certainly something special, something only 13 players in the history of the league have managed to do, it's not a reliable predictor of future eliteness, greatness, Hall-of-Fameness or whatever other attribute one might expect in return or $7MM a year.
- That would be an easier argument to make if Anze Kopitar weren't getting $6.8MM, arguably having accomplished less.
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